3d0g Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Very misleading demo. Sulfur hexafluoride has a density of 6.12 g/L, versus air at 1.23 g/L and ethanol vapor at 1.50 g/L. You're going to have a VERY hard time floating a boat on a tub of ethanol vapor. And even with sulfur hexafluoride's extreme density, it STILL fully mixes with air eventually. It is the most potent greenhouse gas ever tested - 24,000 X more so than CO2. It's effectively banned in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iskiebaedistillery Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 3dog, I'm not suggesting the use of sulfur hexafluoride in anyway and I'm not suggesting a "boat" will float in ETOH vapors. Some people just need help visualizing things and many believe if something is "heavier than air" your still "wouldn't work". In a perfect scenario with no air or surface movement, which is impossible, if ethanol vapors were being pumped in the bottom of the pot they would push the oxygen out just as water would if you were filling it through the bottom of the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3d0g Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Agreed iskiebaedistillery but that visualization really has little to do/compare with still operations. Ethanol vapor will not behave like the sulfur hexafluoride did. Ethanol vapor is so close to air in density that natural currents, temperature variations, and even basic entropic mixing rapidly blends the gases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iskiebaedistillery Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Yes, completely agree 3dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshiner11 Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 Quote Ive always had an issue with pop offs. One you are doing something very wrong. Two you are releasing a ton of vapor into the air next to an open flame, most the time. The safest thing I have seen was a 5 psi pop off while using electric controller from schnappstills with explosion proof contactors and an alarm to notify of high temps. Both being used as emergency shut off. Plus a large exhaust fan in the gable. Best option NEVER walk away form your still, and keep an eye on temp. Pressure is created by heat. Heat is read in temp. Raising temp= raising pressure. Obviously if you still reaches 213F you have a MAJOR ISSUE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 replying to Moonshiner 11 6 hours ago, Moonshiner11 said: One you are doing something very wrong I don't understand why you have an issue, the only reason any safety device is needed is for when something goes wrong, usually when not expected. Hopefully the safety device never needs to operate 7 hours ago, Moonshiner11 said: Two you are releasing a ton of vapor into the air next to an open flame, Please read previous page on this thread. I said safety valves should release the vapour to a safe place outside. Yes, you could have a problem if released inside. I will probably cause a bit of disagreement here, but an open flame close to the release of a relatively small continuous flammable vapour is actually a safety device, it consumes the vapour before it builds to an explosive level. Research the reason for flare stacks at oil refineries and oil wells. 7 hours ago, Moonshiner11 said: Raising temp= raising pressure ONLY in a solid sealed container. A correctly operating still is open to atmosphere so raising temperature does not increase the pressure in the still. The pressure will only increase if the still has a fault that blocks the outlet, AND the condenser is not condensing the vapour as fast as it is being produced. 7 hours ago, Moonshiner11 said: Obviously if you still reaches 213F you have a MAJOR ISSUE! Every day my still reaches 213F in the pot, it is one indication that all the alcohol has probably all boiled off. It is not an ISSUE Pure water boils at about 212F, depending on the altitude. Water that contains "salts" can boil at well over 212F. Sea water boils at roughly 220F. I assume there is enough salt in my pot to increase the boiling point by 1F If I didn't turn the heat off the pot temperature will gradually increase as water boils off and the salt concentration increases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Moonshiner 11 Pressure relief safety devices are very important. Every still in every distillery should have pressure relief safety devices on the inner boilers and jackets. We are now starting to put them on our columns as well, just for the sake of safety redundancy. Safety devices on the inner boilers and columns should be 5psi and they should be of the correct capacity for the boiler size, and of course everyone knows, or should know that the vapor from pressure relief safety devices, that are on inner boilers and columns should be routed to a safe area to the exterior of the building. Please tell me a little about the Jason Schnapp heating systems and panels. Are they NEMA4X? Do they have all UL listed components? Do the control panels meet the NEC 409 requirements? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtshfd Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 We installed 2 floorsweeping vents that flank our still with ceiling vents plumbed into the same explosion proof exhaust fan above the system. We don't run the still without the negative pressure from the venting turned on. Frankly we never turn it off. Pressure relief valves are a critical safety device and I can't imagine a still running without one. Where the industry has fallen into trouble was with equipment producers using relief valves that were rated for high pressure systems. This, in effect, made the valves just for show to pass regulations. The welds and joints in most stills wont last past 40 psi, so a relief valve higher than that is pointless. I believe this is the main contributing factor to the Silver Trail explosion last year. They had packing that clogged the vapor line and thus pressurized their kettle and the relief valve was rated at something obscene like 150 psi. Most typical stills should never have system pressures much higher than the solution's vapor pressure which is minute in the scheme of a pressure system. Everyone should check their stills for relief valves (both pressure and vacuum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I have a lingering engineering question. Valves have been beat to death. I don't think ventilation has been. Why do all of these ventilation systems rely on negative pressure and venting through an explosion proof fan? I would assume we could remove the same amount of air/fumes from a building with positive pressure (fan blowing in on one end of the building) and vents at the far end (exhausting air). My logic sees this as safer, less expensive and just as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iskiebaedistillery Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Not sure if this is the reason, but a lot of buildings have forced air for heat. Its not running 100% of the time, so if it was positive pressure then the ethanol vapors could be forced through the ducts. Obviously, if you just had exhaust ventilation directly from the distillery to the atmosphere and radiant hot water heat, then I could see it working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Heat? In the distillery? Only in Minnesota... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Topliff Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 On 10/6/2015 at 1:50 PM, glisade said: Alcohol vapor is not heavier than air when it is hot...otherwise your still wouldn't work. Actually, this is not entirely correct. The hot vapors rise in the still because the condenser creates a lower pressure (slight vacuum) and the vapors travel from the higher pressure where the vapors are generated in the pot to the top. Even at 200'F (above its atmospheric boiling point) ethanol vapors are 20% heavier than air. Ethanol vapors will fairly quickly mix with air, although they will still tend to seek the floor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Topliff Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 On 9/28/2016 at 1:06 PM, Falling Rock said: Why do all of these ventilation systems rely on negative pressure and venting through an explosion proof fan? iskiebaydistillery has the right idea. By using negative pressure ventilation, you prevent any flammable ethanol vapors from traveling from the origin to other parts of the building that are not designed for the hazardous location - primarily electrical. If your distillery is in a separate building, positive pressure ventilation will definitely work and save the cost of the XP fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 This is a 2 inch pressure/ vacuum release on my still. I turned heat off at end of run and left condenser water on. A slight vacuum develops in the still and air quickly enters and prevents still collapsing. Over pressure vents the other way if for instance cooling water not turned on. I recently saw a still that collapsed after turned off and hatch left closed. Air could not enter parrot fast enough to overcome the vacuum. It was re-built then a few months later the base buckled and split when another operator forgot to turn condenser water on and pressure increased because vapour could not escape through the condenser fast enough. Very dangerous situation. That still now fixed and has a similar water column safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 This is why we have always put vacuum relief valves on all of our still pot and mash tun inner boilers. Everyone should have them on their fully enclosed storage tanks as well. Vacuum is a force of nature, not to be screwed with. http://www.teachertube.com/video/railroad-tank-car-vacuum-implosion-258883 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer Spring Distillers Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 On 8/19/2016 at 12:47 PM, Southernhighlander said: Moonshiner 11 Pressure relief safety devices are very important. Every still in every distillery should have pressure relief safety devices on the inner boilers and jackets. We are now starting to put them on our columns as well, just for the sake of safety redundancy. Safety devices on the inner boilers and columns should be 5psi and they should be of the correct capacity for the boiler size, and of course everyone knows, or should know that the vapor from pressure relief safety devices, that are on inner boilers and columns should be routed to a safe area to the exterior of the building. Please tell me a little about the Jason Schnapp heating systems and panels. Are they NEMA4X? Do they have all UL listed components? Do the control panels meet the NEC 409 requirements? Schnapp Still equipment is crap. Non UL, or NEMA, basically made in his basement from Home Depot scraps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson bay distillers Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 pete your video is genius that is a system that cant fail . how did you determine how much water to put in the pipe . tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 About 6 inches should be enough. If bubbles push through while running the still, add a little more water until it stops. Approximately 1 foot of water in the "U" will hold back 1 PSI of pressure or vacuum. As well as water depth the diameter of the pipe is very important. The larger the still the larger diameter pipe is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 I saw this still in France last month. Almost turned inside out. It didn't have a vacuum release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson bay distillers Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 thats good info pete thanks . would be logical to say one pound of water will give you one pound of back pressure . tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, Hudson bay distillers said: thats good info pete thanks . would be logical to say one pound of water will give you one pound of back pressure . tim It is not the weight of the water, it is the depth. It does not matter if the tube is 1 inch or 1 mile diameter, 2 feet of water column will create the same 1 PSI pressure. Before someone thinks I have made a mistake about 1 or 2 feet per PSI. Explained: 1 foot of water in a "U" will be pushed up one side of the tube to 2 feet by 1 PSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson bay distillers Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 once again pete you have schooled me up i walk away smarter from talking to you thank you . i love simple solutions that cant fail . tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 22 hours ago, Hudson bay distillers said: ……………. simple solutions that cant fail ………………. \\ Sorry to be critical but the words "can't fail" should not be used in a potentially dangerous situation. "very unlikely to fail" would be more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshiner11 Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 On 6/27/2018 at 5:33 PM, Hammer Spring said: Schnapp Still equipment is crap. Non UL, or NEMA, basically made in his basement from Home Depot scraps. The controllers are made with nema and UL parts. Show me a better one on the market. Pretty funny your distillery has been using them for two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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