pogriallais Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Hi all, I'm probably going to order a column with 3-4 plates from Still dragon. Planning to heat the pot/ kettle directly with an electrical element. I'm going to go for a low watt density element. I have the option of a stainless covered element. The pot is around 207 litres (55 gallons) stainless steel. I will mash and lauter in another vessel to make a clear wash. Does anyone foresee any difficulty with heating directly in terms of scorching or smearing? A lot of people swear by agitation to avoid smearing. If agitation is vital could anyone recommend a supplier of an agitator that I can install on the kettle? I can power it pneumatically or electrically. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. Pádraic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Stilldragon offers the agitators as options...I assume would be hard to beat. Also, I would foresee more elements at lower wattage being an advantage. This would also allow for finer temp control by simply turning elements on or off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogriallais Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Falling Rock, thank you. To heat the mash from 20 - 78 degrees centigrade(68-172 F) in an hour or so I would need 35KW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 200 liters at 35,000watts with agitation would be approx 28min to first vapor by my calculations and very or too fast, more likely to scorch. Approx 17,500watts will get you to 93C in an hour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogriallais Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Cheers. I will probably go with 3 x 5500Watt ultra low density elements. Do you have a formula I could use for that calculation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Most sites have calculators as does your equipment manufacturer. https://www.stilldragon.org/calc.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 ........................................... I will mash and lauter in another vessel to make a clear wash. Does anyone foresee any difficulty with heating directly in terms of scorching or smearing? A lot of people swear by agitation to avoid smearing. ................................... If you have a clear wash you will get little or no scorching. But, I often hear posters here who are worried about scorching. I think scorching and charring are great. High temperature causes "maillard reaction" I quote Wikipedia "is a chemical reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars that gives browned food its desirable flavor. Seared steaks, pan-fried dumplings, cookies, breads, toasted marshmallows, and many other foods undergo this reaction" My still is direct fired and there is always charr in the bottom. It gives a faint smoky flavor and a better mouth feel I think it was Scotland's Glenferclas that converted their wash stills from direct flame to steam about 30 years ago. A week or so later they ripped the steam coils out and went back to flame because their spirit had lost a lot of its "character" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogriallais Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 I'm intrigued by the maillard reaction. I believe Glenfiddich is another distillery that uses direct fired stills. We would have directly fired our stills over many generations. How did you get that to pass in an ATEX situation? I'm getting an expert in fire safety to draw up my ATEX document and we both agreed that the 'easiest' route is to heat the still electrically, thereby removing a source of ignition should the worst case scenario happen of Lower explosive limit or Higher Explosive Limit. I will have a hood above the still that will have an extractor to remove any potential alcohol vapours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmdoyle Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Would scorching limit the life of an immersion element? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 By the way, we are essentially setting up the same still. PM us, happy to compare notes. We decided to go with 3 x 5.5KW immersion elements, and run them at lower current most of the time. We have built our own control box for this, that is using variable pulse timing SSR to control heating of immersion elements, with a Wattco PID. If you can control the current in the elements, then I think the only reason to use the lower rated elements would be because of the power limitations of your source or controller. The elements will generally last longer, and have lower local temperature, if they are larger (higher wattage usually is a larger element) but operated at lower current. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Rock Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 You had better taste some scorched liquor before you deem this a desirable idea. I have some scorched grain base liquor, and have saved them for blending...a little can go a long way. I wouldn't want it in every batch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugman Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 We do a stripping run with a straight column (pot still) with no separation of grain from mash. We started by separating the grain from the mash (major pain in the ass) but tried it with grain in the boiler with elements and it worked fine. Out boiler is stainless 53-gallon with 2 of the 5500 watt elements. I fill the boiler with water just above the elements before adding the fermented mash and have had no problems besides a few stuck corn kernels. No agitator although it would be nice. I scrub the elements after each run with copper wool. On the stripping run we run both elements full blast until vapor starts than back off to 65% power for balance of run. We have a Still Dragon 5" crystal dragon column with 4 plates for finish run. Works great. No bad tastes. I have purchased two 6500 watt stainless elements but not installed them yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogriallais Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 PMDoyle. I'm not sure if it would limit the life of the element. I would have to assume it would, especially if it isn't cleaned thoroughly afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 You had better taste some scorched liquor before you deem this a desirable idea. I have some scorched grain base liquor, and have saved them for blending...a little can go a long way. I wouldn't want it in every batch. Not quite sure which of the posts you were commenting on? I agree scorching can be a problem. So we don't use this still for strips, only for redistillation. And we use an agitator as well, to avoid local overheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 .......... How did you get that to pass in an ATEX situation? .......................... that the 'easiest' route is to heat the still electrically, thereby removing a source of ignition should the worst case scenario happen of Lower explosive limit or Higher Explosive Limit. I will have a hood above the still that will have an extractor to remove any potential alcohol vapours. To start with my distillery is on a farm and I have no near neighbors so authorities are not as strict. I believe a continuous live flame in a distillery is a safety device. That statement will probably horrify some people but a flame stack is a very important safety measure at natural gas facilities as it safely disposes of gas during emergencies, power failures, equipment failures or other "upsets" in the processing. A constant flame slowly consumes any flammable gases and keeps the concentration well below the explosive range. Another way to I reduce potential vapor buildup is with a lot of passive ventilation. In a small setup a hood over a hot still with a reasonably tall flue would probably work quite well. In a larger facility mechanical ventilation with explosion proof fans would be advisable. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT A QUALIFIED EXPERT IN THIS FIELD BUT I HAVE A VERY GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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