EchoJoe Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I apologize in advance if this is a question I should have figured out the answer to by now. It's also probably a question best asked of a TTB agent, but I thought I would toss it here to see if anyone knew. I'm still in the planning stages, working on a distillery that would produce rum. Dunder is going to be a key ingredient to the flavor I'm looking for, but all of my research is telling me that it will take a while to get a good dunder pit going. I'm considering ways to get that in process while buildout, still delivery, etc. is happening. The key would seem to be that you want the dunder to have no alcohol left in it, lest you impede the growth of all of the fun bacteria. So... 1) Mix up a batch of molasses water, add yeast, boil the alcohol out, and let the bacteria take over. Can I do that without a DSP, if I don't intend to sell the alcohol? Alcohol is a byproduct of plenty of production processes, just not in that volume. 2) Mix up the molasses, leave it uncovered for a few days, maybe outside. Boil it to sterilize it again, then let the bacteria take over. Anyone have any experience with this?
dhdunbar Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I don't know squat about dunder, other than recalling someone referring to me as a dunderhead once upon a time. But if Wikipedia has it correctly: Dunder is the liquid left in a boiler after distilling a batch of rum.[1] It is a traditional flavor source used in the fermentation of the wash of Jamaican rum. Similar in process to sour mash in Bourbon whiskey, it is a crucial step in achieving an authentic rum flavor. The problem is, it is what is left in the boiler AFTER distillation. So someone has to distill. Which is an Oops moment. You can't distill spirits period until you get a permit and are registered. I'm not even sure that if you found a kind distiller who would ship you its leftovers that someone would not get into hot water over that. I think it would be the removal of a distilling by-product. Here are the requirements: Sec. 19.308 Spirits content of chemicals produced. - All chemicals and chemical byproducts produced must be substantially free of spirits before being removed from bonded premises. The spirits content of chemicals to be removed from bonded premises must not exceed 10 percent by volume unless the appropriate TTB officer approves higher limits. A proprietor must test chemicals for spirits content and maintain a record of such tests as required by Sec. 19.584. Sec. 19.309 Disposition of chemicals - Chemicals that meet the requirements in Sec. 19.308 may be removed from bonded premises by pipeline or in containers marked to show the contents. The proprietor must determine the quantities of chemicals removed from bonded premises and keep records of removals as required by Sec. 19.586. A TTB officer may take samples of chemicals. But remember, someone called me a dunderhead, so I'll leave it to persons schooled in distilling to argue whether dunder meets the requirements. I suspect that if you asked most TTB employees about this, you would get a blank stare. So go armed with the above provisions and if you want to make sure, get someone to put it in writing. We used to give written answers. I suspect it would be a case of "good luck with that" if you tried it today.
bluefish_dist Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 If you didn't use a still to create the dunder you might be ok. depending on quantity you might fall under a home brewer/wine maker provided that the alcohol was evaporated from an open pot with no way to condense it. I personally would not do it. You will have a month or so after getting your dsp prior to being able to sell while waiting for label approval and/or waiting for state licensing.
Silk City Distillers Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 Dunder is more about microbiology than aged stillage. If you really want to get a culture started, you don't need to base it on rum stillage, you only need to approximate rum stillage. Here is a rough starter recipe and process: 1L water in 2L Erlenmayer 40g blackstrap molasses (trace sugars) 1/8th tsp of DME (for nutrient) 1/8th tsp dry yeast (for nutrient) trace yeast nutrient Boil broth for 30m to provide some basic sterilization and remove dissolved oxygen. If you would like, you can add a trace amount of ethyl alcohol. You now need to consider how you are going to get your broth inoculated with the right bacterial. If you don't have any bacteria, I'd say adjust the pH to about 4.5, and let nature take it's course. Scale as necessary. If you are using bacterial culture, you might want to consider keeping the culture anaerobic and using a temperature controlled stir-plate.
dhdunbar Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 Silk City has provided an excellent example of why one should stick to things about which one knows. I'm indebted to him for reminding me of my limitations. Thanks James.
EchoJoe Posted May 18, 2016 Author Posted May 18, 2016 Thanks for all of the advice so far! Things I didn't think about and avenues to consider. Doing some additional research, 12 hours ago, bluefish_dist said: If you didn't use a still to create the dunder you might be ok. depending on quantity you might fall under a home brewer/wine maker provided that the alcohol was evaporated from an open pot with no way to condense it. I personally would not do it. You will have a month or so after getting your dsp prior to being able to sell while waiting for label approval and/or waiting for state licensing. Bluefish might be right. A year may not be necessary to create a proper dunder. As Silk City also said, it's more about microbiology than the age. Experiments worth trying!
Silk City Distillers Posted May 18, 2016 Posted May 18, 2016 Dave - Nonsense, your answer is the correct one. I only provided an alternative for experimentation that would get around that.
clearwaterbrewer Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 spend your year reading and re-reading and comprehending the following, it will be a much better use of your time: "Production of Heavy Rums" by Rafael Arroyo Patented Oct. 16, 1945 2,386,924 United States Patent Office 2,386,924 PRODUCTION OF HEAVY RUMS Rafael Arroyo, Rio Piedras, P. R. No Drawing. Application January 13, 1943, Serial No. 427,250
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