Bartletts Distillery

Just curious, how do you guys feed your bottle filler? I'm trying to understand how the best way to setup a bottling line. Do you pump your proofed liquor into an eleveated tank that gravity feeds into the bottle filler? Or do you simply elevate the proofing tank? Do you use a pump to feed the bottle filler? What about fire code issues of electrical equipment near flammable liquid? Thanks VB

I found another bank to work with, submitted 35MB worth of files on Thursday. Let's see what they say this coming week.

I just spoke with the bank today and one of their requirements for an SBA loan is that at lease one of the "principles" had to have at least 5 years experience in the industry. Are there any consultants out there who could serve as a 5% owner and provide distillery consulting services? Where to start looking? If this doesn't work, then are there any lenders (Texas) that are amiable to new Craft Distillers? Cheers, Van Bartletts Distillery, LLC Montgomery County, Texas

Thanks for all of the responses. Brian, the website is quite helpful. What is everyone's take on fire tube vs water tube boilers? I've got quotes from two vendors, each with a different type?

Thanks for the replies. Can someone post / email me some pictures of their boiler setup / piping? I'm trying to get my head around boilers. I'm a mechanical engineer, so boilers are within my realm of understanding, I've just not been exposed to them much...yet. Cheers, VB

Simple question for those of you with low pressure steam boilers: How do you control how much heat is going to the still if the boiler has only on/off operation? Can someone please describe their setup and how it works? I've only been exposed to direct heating with electric elements and steam is a different animal. Cheers, VB

Hey Paul, I sent you and email inquiring about that exact setup, 300 gallon. Cheers VB

OK, here's an interesting one. We've found a location, and have just signed a contract to start our feasibility period. Now I find out from my lender that in order to get an SBA loan, they require that "all licenses be in place prior to close". As you all know, you can't get a TTB DSP license without a location. This seems like the SBA (Small Business Admin) and TTB have conflicting requirements. Have any of you run into issues getting a Small Business Administration loan to purchase a property? Cheers, VB

It looks like I may have a local path through this issue. Montgomery County has a Departmnet of Environmental Health Services which oversees On-site Sewer Facilities. http://www.mctx.org/departments_d-k/departments_e/environmental_health/on-site_septic_facility_(ossf).html So, I won't be dealing directly with the TCEQ, but the County instead. If I get a permit through them, then I should be good to go.

Did they ever quote any specific regulations? With the information you bring up, it looks like the next person to call will be an Wastewater Consultant.

Can you please elaborate on the waste water issues? I'm looking at leasing a place in unincorporated Montgomery County and the property has an aerobic septic system.

Hey Travis, this post was back in July. What was the resolution to the issue?

Congratulations Jessica...but 8 months? Was this on your first submittal or in total after resubmittal? DHDunbar, I'm looking at a place now in an industrial park. A 1200 sq.ft. unit in one building will house production area with still, fermenters, and some storage (all non-sprinklered...but that's another story.) Another building has a 1200 sq.ft. space that's intended to be chopped into 3 x 400 sq.ft. units (pedestrian door & overhead door in each.) I'm looking at using one for storage, one for bottling, and one for adjacent retail. Only the adjacent retail area will not technically be part of the DSP. All other areas (storage, bottling, and production) will make up the bonded area with no general area. If I need extra office space, I'll buildout over the 3 x 400 sq.ft. units and connect it to the adjacent retail space. Does this sound about right?

You guys have to quit trying to use logic. The Fire Marshal could not care less about what you "think". They follow the International Fire Code (IFC), the International Building Code (IBC), and the codes produced by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). Many localities have their own local version of these codes, where they insert their own little modifications, but these are largely the rules we all have to follow. If you happen to be in an unincorporated area of a rural county which has no fire marshal, then you can probably do whatever you think is right. However, you do this at your own peril. Also, if you do not follow these rules, you may also have issues getting insurance than if you do. In short, as defined by "the codes" ethanol is a Class 1B Flammable liquid until you proof it down, then it's a Class 1C Flammable Liquid. These classifications drive the building occupancy and how you design your plant. Occupancy, sprinkler systems, storage limits, these all are interrelated and include the classification of the liquid you're storing. And no, sprinklers won't do diddly for an explosion, but it will help keep that initial fire from turning into a complete loss of the property. References: These data can be found in many sources. Flammable liquids shall be known as Class I liquids. Class I liquids are divided into three classes as follows: (i) Class IA shall include liquids having flashpoints below 73 F (22.8 C) and having a boiling point below 100 F (37.8 C). (ii) Class IB shall include liquids having flashpoints below 73 F (22.8 C) and having a boiling point at or above 100 F (37.8 C). (iii) Class IC shall include liquids having flashpoints at or above 73 F (22.8 C) and below 100 F (37.8 C). Ethanol has a boiling point of 78.37 °C (173.07 °F) and its flash point is dependent on proof. See table below. The flash points of ethanol wt % concentrations[103] wt % Temperature 10% 49 °C (120 °F) 20% 36 °C (97 °F) 30% 29 °C (84 °F) 40% 26 °C (79 °F) 50% 24 °C (75 °F) 60% 22 °C (72 °F) 70% 21 °C (70 °F) 80% 20 °C (68 °F) 90% 17 °C (63 °F) 96% 17 °C (63 °F) Stay Safe! VB

Eric, I too am looking for a location for a distillery in the Houston area, but I'm up in Montgomery County, so the rules may be just a tad different. At any rate, here's some of the things I've found: Houston is the only major city without zoning. There are restrictions on building within neighborhoods, but there are no commercial / industrial zones that I know of that are codified by the City of Houston. Properties are more plentiful down in H-town compared to where I'm looking, so you may have more luck. You should be able to find an industrial warehouse that suits your needs. If you've got a TON of money, then you can build a place suited to your needs. More stuff that I found: Sprinklered or non-sprinklered? Non-sprinklered buildings have a maximum allowable quantity of 120 gallons of class 1B flammable liquid (ethanol) per control area. If you go over the maximum allowable quantity, then you're classified as H-3, which requires sprinklers and adequate ventilation. Even though the International Fire Code (IFC) says there's a exception for alcohol in barrels, that exception does not exist in the International building code (IBC), thus the rule holds. At any rate, if you cannot store more than 120 gallons, then that can make things difficult. You can have up to 4 control areas per building, separated by walls with 1 hour fire resistance. Still this maxes you out at 480 gallons, including tha which you have in process. Another option is to store outside, provided of course that you can secure it. To do this, there are limitations on how many gallons you can have in one "pile" (2200 gallons) but you have to be 50' from the property line and from buildings. If you limit your piles to less than half (1100 gallons), then you can halve the distance (25'). Again, providing you have the property space for this. The other option is sprinklered. If you sprinkler a building, the WHOLE building must be sprinklered OR you have a 3 hour fire barrier (seriously heavy wall) to separate you from your neighbors. The best option is to find a building that is already sprinklered. Installation cost is ~$2.5/ft plus the cost of getting water to the building. You have to be close to a fire line (water) that can supply a TON of water, in the neighborhood of 1000 gpm. You'll also have to have a hydrant within 100' of the building where you put the Fire Department connection (FDC) or pay for a vault and remote FDC. (expensive!) Ethanol storage is considered "Extra Hazard - Group 2", requiring .40 gpm/sq.ft. Again, find a building that's already sprinklered, it'll make your life a lot easier. Best of luck VB

Dunbar, that's sort of what I did. Once I found a place that I though would be suitable, I laid out a basic plan and went to talk to the local Fire Marshal. It was obvious he was not comfortable with a distillery, so he instructed me to get a Fire Protection Engineer to make a report. I made it clear to the landlord's agent that I had to first ensure that I could get a fire permit before I'd sign any lease. Getting a Fire Protection Engineer to spend a little time with me was difficult, but eventually I got my answer. I didn't like it, but it was an answer. It was a great learning experience. It didn't cost me anything but some time. Now, moving forward, I have a lot better understanding of what I need in a location. As for the floor drains..OK, OK, OK!!!! Heard, loud and clear. Make sure to have floor drains. Check!

Thanks guys, but this has become a moot point, at least for the moment. I just got a call from my fire protection engineer (required by the county Fire Marshal.) With an H3 classification, I would need 0.4 gpm / sq.ft for 90 to 120 minutes. Since the local water main cannot supply sufficient water flow, I would have to put in a rather sizable tank, pump, etc. He said that I'd need between 125,000 to 150,000 gallons of water storage. Or enough to fill the building halfway up. Ummm, no thanks. So, I'm back to square-1 on looking for a suitable property. But this time, I'm hunting for a place with better access to large water mains, and existing floor drains! Wish me luck. VB

Continuing to work on my distillery plans. I'm 3 weeks away from signing a lease and still have some unanswered questions. FYI, I'm going to be making rum (sugar, molasses) and whiskey from malt extract, i.e....no grains and no mashing. Question: are floor drains actually "required" by the FDA? I know many highly recommend floor drains, but I'm trying to set this up as clean of a facility as possible, and would rather not have floor drains that would a) harbor a place that could produce TCA, and b) cost a lot of money to install into a facility that I will be leasing. That being said, the Current Good Manufacturing Practices state the following: Section 117.20(3) Adequately draining areas that may contribute contamination to food by seepage, foot-borne filth, or providing a breeding place for pests. Section 117.34(4) Provide adequate floor drainage in all areas where floors are subject to flooding-type cleaning or where normal operations release or discharge water or other liquid waste on the floor. So, does anyone know if they are really required, or just a really good idea? Cheers, VB

Roger that. I'm just looking to fill out my Distillery Registration. Should I include a statement that all quantities of alcohol will be determined by weight and ABV%?

Under 27 CFD 19.166, the code states "A statement of certification of accurate calibration shall be included in the description of tanks that are to be used for gauging distilled spirits or wine for any purpose." Could someone translate this from LAWYER into ENGINEER for me? Does this mean that if a tank is used for measuring volume, that it must be calibrated and certified?

Hey Tupper, No update yet. I'm still in the planning phase and have not started purchasing equipment yet. But, in the near future, I do plan on doing a test, of sorts. We have a countertop macerating juicer which operates on the same principle as the piece of the equipment I intend to order from China. We'll see how it works. Stay tuned...

Since I'm going to be running an all electric still, I will need to separate the spent grain from the wort prior to either fermenting or distilling. I've looked at a lot of options, but none seem workable. The Russel-Finex units are prohibitively expensive (~$35k) and other options will not work for larger batches (250 gallon+), require lots of cleaning, or won't dewater the grain enough (powered sieve option from Russel Finex ~$12k). I did find something that may work. Industrial juicing machines from China look like they may fit the bill. They have units which can juice up to 2.5 metric tons (~3300 lbs or 400 gallons) per hour for only $3-5k. I figure if a piece of equipment can juice a carrot, then it should OK separating grains and wort. Just Google: industrial fresh fruit juicer alibaba See attachment. Thoughts? Van Bartletts Distillery, LLC

Thank you all for the support. Stillcreek, it looks like we may have just enough for a club!

Hello fellow distillers and distillers to be. My name is Van and I've just started this journey on opening my own craft distillery in Texas, just north of Houston. I've not ever worked in the spirits industry, but I do believe that I'm going into this with my eyes wide open. I spent 20 years in the Oil and Gas industry as a degreed and licensed Mechanical Engineer before succumbing to the recent fall in oil prices. I've always been a hands-on type person, spending time on a variety of arts: oil well drilling, cooking, butchery, mechanic, welder, scuba diver, computer programming, electronics, home remodeling, woodworking, etc. Suffice it to say, if I can put my hands on it, I can probably master it. I've done a lot of "research" with information from this and other forums about making spirits, both all grain whiskey / bourbon, and rum from molasses and/or sugar. I figure I have a basic handle on how to produce something that is drinkable, enjoyable, and sellable. I also have a firm understanding on the role of the Federal Government (TTB) in our industry. It is very similar to the role of the Bureau of Safety and Environmental Enforcement (BSEE) for offshore drilling. We only operate at their approval. If we don't appreciate their role...and their power, then we may as well not even get started in this industry. I've been planning on this adventure for over two years. I've developed a strategy (business plan, regulatory plan, facilities plan, marketing plan, sales plan, etc.) But these things continue to evolve as I gather more information. I have the luxury of being able to open this business while maintaining my current full-time job. I also have the support of my wife and friends who will help in this endeavor. I have just obtained my business license: Bartletts Distillery, LLC which I'll operate with a PO Box address as I gather information and finish my startup plans. My timeline is something like this: now through September: finish plans. September 2016 through January 2017, rent facility, order equipment, apply for licenses, conduct build-out, obtain license. January 2017, start production. March 2017, first sales. Thanks to everyone who has provided valuable information on this and other sites. I would not have been able to even get to this point without such a supportive community. I also look forward to being part of this community and helping others with what I've learned (and will learn) Cheers, Van Brackin President, Bartletts Distillery bartlettsdistillery.com (don't make fun of my website, I'm still working on it.) p.s. I WILL be attending the conference next week in San Diego.