Southernhighlander

I have vacuum stripping stills that can be fired by wood fired hydronic heating boilers.  These boilers are far less expensive than steam boilers.

Just now, Southernhighlander said:

Mike,

I should add that if I have customers that are in an area where they can dig a well and they are ordering larger stills, I generally suggest that the customer have a well drilled rather than buy a G&D chiller from us because the well costs a lot less than buying a chiller and they use a lot less energy.    I only suggest chillers when they  are the best, least expensive option.

On 2/15/2022 at 11:43 AM, MG Thermal Consulting said:

Cool man! What are you using for mash cooling, a straight chiller/reservoir tank or a drycooler for the high temp cooling glycol/water?

Hi Mike,

  Both of my customers who are currently running these stills are crash cooling with well water in my 2,500 gallon mash tuns which have crash cooling coils.  For this 3rd 2,500 gallon still, which is in the photo above, the customer will also be using well water to crash cool their mash and for condenser cooling.

My employee Nate just finished jeweling this 2,500 gallon signature series still pot.  Our 2,500 gallon stills put out 75 gallons of whiskey per hour.

21 hours ago, Malthead247 said:

I hugely appreciate this and will be in touch. Thanks!

 

The information you provided was incredibly valuable, thank you so much! I have felt a little uneasy about the counterfeit potential with the stills I have listed. I keep coming back to DYE equipment as being the only reliable kit from China. 

I would also like to explore the option of stills from the US, Southernhighlander, would you ship to NZ? If so, I will send a quotation request through to the email you have provided. Thanks

 

 

Malthead247.  Yes we can ship to NZ.  Send us and email and we will get right back to you with a quote.

Thanks.

Malthead,

Sorry.  I didn't look at your profile so I didn't know you were from NZ.  That being the case some of what I said does not apply.  Good luck.

18 hours ago, Malthead247 said:

Hi all, I am launching a small craft distillery and am looking for an affordable 250L to 350L multifunction still. 

I have found quite a few suppliers from China, who have provided schematics and information that seems legitimate. I am hoping there is someone who can advise me on a company that provides a high level of quality? I have heard good things about DYE, however their still designs do not appeal to me. 

Current options I have found include:

Hooloo Distilling -  https://hooloodistill.com/products/200l-crystal-distilliation-equipment-with-bubble-caps-crystal-column

Rain star Ltd -  http://rainstarltd.com/product/356258.html

Ace Machinery - https://www.ace-chn.com/Distiller/

HANGZHOU ZHENGJIU MACHINERY MANUFACTURING CO.,LTD -  https://tinyurl.com/2p8kvt7v

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. I am looking to use an oil heated boiler, but have also received an affordable quote for an 18kw steam generator.

 

Thank you very much!

Malthead

 

Malthead,

So here in the US, code requires that the area around a still be a class 1 division 2 hazardous environment. For the still to meet the requirements of the C1D2 the agitator motor will need to be UL listed as explosion proof and the PRV for your still's jacket will need to be an ASME section VIII safety valve.  From my experience, stills of the suppliers that you list do not have UL listed explosion proof agitator motors so they do not meet the requirements of the C1D2.  Also since they do not have  ASME rated PRVs on the jacket they do not meet the ASME code requirements. 

If the still is electric baine Marie, the electric heating system must have all UL listed components.  If the still has an onboard heating system with a pressurized jacket, the still must have a UL device listing for the entire still.  I have never seen a still purchased directly from any of these Chinese companies with a UL listing on their agitator motors nor all of the electrical components nor the entire system.  Generally the agitator motors on these stills are CE listed as are the electrical components.  CE is for the EU and other parts of the world.  CE is not good enough for the US and Canada as it  is not accepted here for reasons I will not go into.   Also many Chinese CE listed parts are counterfeit.

If I were you, I would ask these Chinese companies if they will guarantee that their still meets all US codes and will pass all electrical and safety inspections.  Some inspectors will overlook the CE listings but many inspectors go strictly by the codes so you will fail inspection.  In some instances, the state will allow you to pay for an engineer to look over your still and deem it safe but that can be very expensive because the engineering firm that signs off on it accepts some liability for it.

Also there is the matter of support, if a problem arises.  Most of the companies you list know that you are an end user and therefore most likely a one time buyer and so they do not figure they are losing anything if they don't help you.  Also they are in another country so they won't send a tech out to fix the problem. 

Also you could just flat out get ripped off.  I was ripped off for $130,000.00 and tried everything including having a Chinese friend of mine and his wife go to a police station and report it for me the.  The Chinese police said that I would have to be there in person to make the report and I could have went to China to do that but after researching it I understood that it would not do any good.  I called the FBI and the agent was nice and did what he could but he told me right up front that it would be to no availed because the Chinese government would not help in these cases.

Also many of the Chinese still designs are stolen intellectual property.  If that doesn't bother you than please consider that some companies give the Chinese factories designs that are none functional then they fix the issues once the stills get over here.  That is what I have done in the past.   You would have no idea what the flaws are if they sell you one of my old designs and I am probably not the only one who does this.

If you are absolutely intent on buying a still directly from the Chinese, DYE is your best bet but their stills cost as much or more than mine and I think you will have to pay shipping from China.

Some have purchased Chinese stills and done okay with them and some have not, but you should know the risks. DYE has distributers in the US and it is my understanding that their support is good.  I'm not talking up their stills.  I think mine are better.  I'm just being truthful. 

If you would like a quote and reference list for my equipment please email paul@distillery-equipment.com  We have over 500 of our stills in distilleries.  We also sell US made steam boilers, US made chillers, mash tuns, fermenters, US made pumps, blending tanks and many other pieces of equipment for distilleries.  All of our equipment for distilleries is currently made in the US or  assembled in the US and most of it aside from support equipment is designed by me.  We design and build our electrical systems in house and our ASME  PRVs and UL listed explosion proof agitator motors are American made.  We do around 20% of our fabrication in house and we are always pushing to increase the amount of work that we do here.  If you would like to talk, call my direct line 417-778-6908 and ask for Paul.

We have stainless tanks, for blending and proofing.  We can supply the tanks with explosion proof agitators or explosion proof pumps.  We add grounding terminals so there is no chance of static discharge.  Our blending/mixing tanks are in several distilleries.  For a quote and reference list email paul@distillery-equipment.com

On 1/24/2022 at 1:16 AM, Alex_Sor said:

The coil inside the tank with a "dirty" mixture (containing harder particles) will clog where the tubes fit against the tank walls. There will be dead zones. You will have to disassemble the unit to wash these hard-to-reach places from the remnants of the grains. (it's my opinion).

The "pipe in pipe" heat exchanger option costs money, this is a separate additional device, I agree. But just such a solution (pipe in pipe) is used by engineers for "dirty" mixtures (with solid particles of grains). It's easy to clean and doesn't have to be taken apart to clean. Strong water pressure + detergents flush the pipes perfectly. For large tanks, I would recommend making a "cooling jacket" (double tank walls). This will allow you not to have problems with cleaning the tank.

Alex,

We did a lot of testing with different positions for our immersion coils and we found a sweet spot where little to no build up occurs between the coil and tank walls in our corn cooker mash tuns.  What build up does occur is knocked down by our high pressure clean in place system which uses spinning, high volume, high pressure spray balls to do a complete cleaning in a matter of seconds.   

Of course grain in corn mashes must have liquification enzymes added at the beginning of the cook. These enzymes allow the finely ground corn flour to be suspended in the liquid.  This enzyme is added for liquification, not starch to sugar conversion. 

The starch to sugar conversion enzymes are added after the first phase of the crash cool, in the form of malted barley and or other malted grains and sometimes as simple enzymes. 

If the corn mash is not properly liquefied, the corn flour will fall out of suspension and a lot of build up will occur between the coil  and sidewall just as you said and sticking will also occur in certain areas of the pot.  Grain in corn mashes are almost always liquefied by American distillers. 

 Also the mash tuns I am referencing are corn cooking mash tuns.  I would never put a crash cooling coil in a mash tun used for malted Barley and other malted grains as those grains will certainly build up between the cooling coil and side wall becouse those grains are not finally ground and not in suspension.

We found that our coils, cool faster and use less energy to cool, than our cooling jackets or tube in tube heat exchangers of the same price.  We have over 90 of our corn mash tuns in distilleries with our internal cooling coils and they work pretty good.  Of course they are for  liquefied corn mashes that are being cooked then crash cooled for starch to sugar conversion, which is something that you probably have less experience with since Bourbon and Tennessee whiskeys are not traditional spirits in Eastern Europe where vodka and brandies are the tradition.

On 1/24/2022 at 12:03 PM, Mechengineer_81 said:

 

I would also add, if it is not cost prohibitive 150PSIG steam is a lot nicer  than 15PSIG as far as having a good dry steam. 15PSIG helps save costs on vessels but adds a lot of intricacies as far as condensate return systems and possibilities of flooding jackets. if you have a scenario where you have to have your boiler a decent distance from use points, lots of independent loads or a lot of elevation change, the higher pressure can really help as well. 

 

Mecheenginer_81,

In many situations higher pressure boilers are the way to go for the reasons you give, however that is not the case with craft distilleries for the reasons I give below.

No distillery equipment manufacturer that I know of builds pot stills that operate on high pressure steam.  In fact everyone I know builds their jacketed pot stills to operate at less than 15psi.  We have around 500 of our stills in distilleries ranging in size up to 2,500 gallons and they all operate at less than 15 PSI.  

State and municipal requirements for high pressure steam boilers are more stringent and in many cases a full time certified boiler operator is required by law.

For these reasons and others I always steer my customers away from high pressure boilers.  Of course my pots can be ran with high pressure boilers as long as a pressure reducer is in place.

In my opinion a high pressure boiler does not gain you anything if you cannot find stills that will operate on high pressure steam.

I have sold over 80 Rite low pressure steam boilers to the distilleries that run my equipment and they all work great with no issues that I know of.

Buffalobink

For a 1 hr heat up to operating temp. time you will need 400,000 btus of low pressure steam boiler output. That is a huge electrical draw.  You would need 3 phase power and plenty of it, preferably 480v.  Generally for those reasons people almost always use natural gas or propane boilers on stills as large as yours.  In fact, in some situations the power company will not connect you because the electrical draw from starting a boiler that large can cause what's called lamp flicker, meaning you will dim the lights of your neighbors when you start the boiler.    Normally nat. gas and propane cost a lot less than electric to operate.  Over the last few months propane and natural gas have been more expensive than they have been for years but projections show that could change dramatically in a year or so.  I would go with nat gas or propane.  It's just as safe and it will cost you a lot less in the long run. 

Also keep in mind that you only want to put a boiler in once.  So if you are planning to add a 400 gallon mash tun or other equipment down the road, you will need 800,000 BTUs of low pressure steam boiler output for the still and mash tun, which is way beyond the capacity of most electric boilers and you had better have industrial power if you do that with an electric boiler of that size.  Most inexpensive electric boilers do not have a capacity to run your still let alone additional equipment.

200,000 BTUs of low pressure steam boiler output will give you a 2 hour heat up time with just your 400 gallon still.  Stripping runs would take longer and you would have to add a larger boiler or an additional boiler to have enough capacity to add a mash tun etc.

My advice would be for you to get yourself a good nat gas or propane boiler with some extra capacity so that you can expand your operation down the road.  That's certainly what I would do if I were in your shoes.  Also, avoid cheap knock down boilers of any kind.  They come unassembled and cost a lot to have someone put them together.

Pour Decisions .

A coil will cool either way but it will cool a little faster if you move the mash around. A pump to  circulate the mash in your fermenter would give you the circulation that you need.   If your mash is grain out, you can use a centrifugal pump to circulate with.  If it's grain in just let me know and I will give you some recommendations.

We have coils for 100 gallon fermenters as well.  Ours are larger, have more surface area and cost less that Carl's (Bubba's).  Carl is a great guy and a friend of mine.  His products are good quality and well priced, but I have him beat on this one. 

 Just email Susan@distillery-equipment.com and let her know that you would like pricing and pics of our cooling coil for 100 gallon barrel fermenters. 

We do not have these on any of our web sites.

Thanks

Paul Hall 

email: paul@distillery-equipment.com

I actually like immersion coils better than tube in tube, so our mash tuns come with internal cooling coils also our pro series mash tuns have really strong agitators so you can leave some of the water out of the recipe and then add it to the mash as cold water so that the crash cool is done in 2 or 3 minutes.  We do have tube in tube heat exchangers at a great price that will crash cool your mash in 10 to 15 minutes.   Of you would like a qoute email paul@distillery-equipment.com or if you would like to discuss call 417-778-6908 and ask for Paul. 

19 hours ago, richard1 said:

Hi Paul @Southernhighlander.  Thanks and best wishes to all for the season.  Nice thing about SA is the weather, 9 months summer.

 

Each element assembly is 6KW, 230 / 400 VAC.  I currently run one element assembly per phase.  I designed the basic element requirements and had them manufactured by a local SA element manufacturer.  The bosses I manufactured and free issued them.   Don't know about their listed CE or UL status, but the company is ISO certified.  It's not that pricey even though they do cost.  Tried to contact the manufacturer today regarding temps, but they are still on Christmas shutdown.

 

I do a mash (barley malt) at a ratio of 4L/Kg, grain in and charge the still with 150 Kg barley malt.  Haven't yet done a corn mash.  No, no smells nor off flavours.  The important thing is to run an agitator whilst heating so you lift the malt off the elements.  As my still is completely automated, I have programmed and run the agitator for a period before the elements come on.  Further I also purposely don't run the elements beyond 80% power whilst mashing (recipe controlled

Richard,

9 months of summer would be nice.  It was around 20 degrees F here in Southern Missouri this morning.  

Hey, if it works that's great.  I can no longer say that grain in mashes can't be done using a direct electric heating system.   If you ever do a Bourbon mash let us know how it turns out.

Thanks

1 hour ago, richard1 said:

  My 6KW stainless steel elements has a watt density of 3.4W/cm2.  Added to this is that I am able to achieve the tasty Maillard reaction which you can't achieve with bainnmaries.

Happy Holidays Richard!

How are you?  How's the weather down your way?  I hear Omicron has passed it's peak in South Africa. A friend of mine immigrated from South Africa to here in the 1990s.  He used to sell mining equipment there.  

I certainly never meant to give the impression that I was a hard sell.  

Maybe I should have said: I have never seen a direct fired electric mash tun or still that could be used to cook or distill a grain in Bourbon mash and as far as I can tell none of my competitors sell direct fire electric stills or direct fired electric mash tuns that can do a 2 lb per gallon grain in bourbon mash without scorching.

  It sounds like you are doing something that I didn't think was possible.  That's really cool.

At 3.4 watts per square centimeter your immersion heater probes have over 1,764 square cm of surface area.  That would be slightly over 694 square inches of surface area.  That's a lot of surface area.

I'm a Chromalox dealer and I sell immersion heaters with Watt densities that low but they are not meant for the direct heating of thick grain in mash and they are huge, hard to clean and really expensive.  I'm not sure how long they would last in a grain in mash and they would be expensive to replace plus they cost more than the mark up for a still pot jacket, by a large margin.  For all of those reasons I've never used them in my designs, direct fire or otherwise.

I keep an open mind and I'm always interested in learning new things and you've peaked my curiosity so I have some questions.  Of course if you don't want to answer them, I understand.

How many watts per immersion heater on your 6,000 Watt directly fired electric still or is it just one 6000 Watt heater?

Who is the manufacturer of the immersion heaters and the still?

Are the elements UL listed, CE listed or do you have something different in South Africa

What is the wet face temperature?

Do you get a smoky flavor when you run grain out single malts?

Have you ran a 2 lb per gallon corn mash in the still with those elements? 

Have you cooked  2lb per gallon corn mashes in it with those elements?

Thank you for any answers you might give.

Gold Creek,

When looking for a still there are several questions you should ask.

Is the still versatile?  If the still is direct fire electric, you are limited to liquid washes.  You cannot do traditional Bourbons or other traditional grain in whiskey mashes in that type of still without scorching the mash and burning out the immersion heaters.  Also you cannot do grappa in a direct electric still.   Also you cannot cook grain in mashes in a direct fired electric still.  If you want the versatility to do all of these things you need either a baine marie electric or steam fired still.

How long is the stills run time from start to finish?  If they tell you that you can run the still without being at the distillery with the still unattended, you should be very wary as that creates a very dangerous situation.  A still should never be left completely unattended.

Is the still easy to operate?

Is the still nice to look at.  If your customers are going to see your still you need a beautiful still.

Can the still be converted to steam if you decide to upgrade to a steam boiler?  Direct fire electric stills cannot be upgraded to steam.

Does the still's electrical system meet Canadian electrical code requirements?  European CE listed electrical systems are not acceptable in the US and Canada.  In the US and Canada we use UL which is much more stringent that CE.  If the still's heating system, agitator motor and controls do not meet the electrical requirements of the Class 1 Division 2 hazardous environment around the still you will fail the fire, safety and electrical inspections and you will not be allowed to use the still.

Does the vendor list their prices on their web site and if not why don't they?

Does the vendor offer a complete reference list with contact info for their customers?  If not why don't they?

Our Standard series baine marie stills are baine marie electric.   They are in hundreds of distilleries in the US and Canada. The electric heating systems and control panels meet all of the safety and electrical code requirements.  Our electrical heating systems and control panels are built in the USA. 

Our agitator motors are Canadian UL listed explosion proof with the highest rating for explosive environments.  Our safety valves are American made Apollo valves and they are ASME rated.  Non ASME rated safety valves are not acceptable.

Our 150 gallon standard series baine marie stills have indirect electric heat.  We can build them so that they can be used as both mash cookers and stills without any drawbacks or increase in price. 

The heating systems are set point temp control and very easy to use.

We can automate the coolant control with an inexpensive thermostatic valve that will control dephlegmator and final condenser coolant flow without any electrical components on or around the column and final condenser..

Our run times are very fast for baine marie stills.

The stainless on our stills is mirror polished and the copper is highly polished.  Our stills are curvy, very beautiful and they look the way you expect a still to look.

We list the prices for all of our equipment on our web site.  The 150 gallon Standard series costs around $18,000.00 with the agitator, heating system and 4 plate column.  For steam without the heating system the price is around $14,000.00 These stills can be converted from electric heat to steam fairly easily.

You can run any mash in these stills, without the worry of scorching.

With the addition of our OSPM module our baine marie stills will produce their own steam in an open pressurized jacket.  Water column is used to create pressure in the open system.

Call Paul at 417-778-6100 between 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM central time Monday through Thursday for a free equipment consultation and quote.   We also supply a huge reference lists with hundreds of contacts. 

 I'm not just here to sell you equipment.  I'm here to help make you successful by selling you the best equipment for your needs.

For a purchase of over $10,000.00 you currently get a 3 day hands on distilling workshop at a distillery that has been running our equipment for 10 years.  You can bring as many as 3 other people to the workshop.  Your party will be the only students at the workshop.  You will be using ADE equipment at the workshop. 

13 hours ago, SlickFloss said:

Parrot the wisdom shared steam is the way. Steam is a tool you will learn to use it in many ways or your life will not be as easy as it could be. Investing any money in electric if there’s any possibility you would switch to steam later is a massive waste of money for grain, which is going to be the only thing that matters six years from now when you gotta pay some bills! (Tangent Big ferments cost big money!!! Make them count!!! Also not in the hills so be intentional with your yeast and use enzymes. Clean your shit.) if regulations on a boiler are the concern itself I know a guy on this forum named Paul Hall who will sell you a vacuum still that can run off of a hydronic boiler so basically a hot water heater. Very low start up time. Very safe lower temp. Vacuum has other maintenance and upfront costs though to be fair. He can get you in game for good price though 

 

@Southernhighlander What do ya think Papi?

Gold Creek, A natural gas, propane or fuel oil boiler producing steam is a much better way to go, than electric baine marie.  I can build you an electric baine marie still in the size that you want but it will have a 1.5 to 2 hr heat up time.  200 amps would be fine as long as you are talking 3 phase 240v or better yet 3 phase 480v. We are not able to build 600v electic heating systems and I believe that is the industrial voltage in Canada. Our 150 gallon Standard Series baine marie still will draw 137.5 amps on 240v single phase and you would need a 175 to 200 amp breaker or fused disconnect for the still.  Our 105 gallon standard series will draw 92 amps on 240v 3phase.

The only advantage to electric is that if you will be running a 100 gallon still and installing a high end boiler such as a Rite boiler and burning natural gas, it would take 15 years for the boiler to pay for itself (including installation) verses the electric still, if your electrical costs 10 cents US per KW hour.  At 10cents per KW you would be using $2.20 worth of electricity per hr for the first 2 hours then around $1.75 per hr for each hour after that.  If it were a 150 gallon still the boiler would pay for itself in around 10 years.  Almost everyone is paying more than 10cents a KW hour these days.

As Slickfoss pointed out I have vacuum stills that pull enough vacuum to distill at 150 degrees F.  These vacuum stills can be heated with hot water and have a very fast heat up time.  You can use a commercial hot water heater that is fired by natural gas or propane or you can use a wood fired hot water boiler.  The draw back is that these vacuum stills are closed systems so you can't make cuts.  They are really good stripping stills and they make great gin stills but not spirit stills.  

If you would like some quotes, please email me paul@distillery-equipment.com

I have a customer who put in a plastic bottle making machine.   He buys his plastic pellets by the container load from Turkey.  He has 19 different Vodkas from $3.00 to $30.00 per 750Ml bottle.  He's shipping 150 pallets per week so he's using a lot of bottles.  He said his 1/2 gallon bottles cost him 26 cents each including inputs energy and labor.  

7 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Cool little rig, that design looks familiar from forums from a decade back when the hobby community was experimenting with small scale continuous.  Everyone had problems with small diameter columns, because it was easy for foam to find support at the walls and climb, or at least not collapse.

Video is neat - but damn that sugar wash is crystal clear.  

 

 

Alexander (Alex_Sor) and I (mostly Alexander) designed a little 2" continuous column still and I built it and ran it in my equipment development lab and it ran great and is really fast.  Alexander had a lot of concerns about foaming in such a tiny column but foaming was not a problem with sugar wash or corn mash.  He came up with a plate design that is very unique, that mitigated the small column foaming issue.  I'm not sure if you can even call them plates.   The columns are modular and easy to disassemble. Each column section clamps in.  We did designs for much larger continuous column stills.  He came up with one design that uses ribbon like structures instead of plates.  Anyway we were and still are really busy building pot stills, so I decided not to move forward with continuous column still development.  

Foaming can be a huge issue in continuous column stills. 

Alex_Sor what do you think of the still in the video?  What do you think the issue is? It appears to be based on the old soviet designs. 

Golden Beaver,

My Po Series could do the run in as little as 4 hrs, with the Standard Series it would take 5 or 6 hours.  You can do a spirit run to whiskey proof without running any plates.  If you don't need the versatility of the 4 plate then one of my copper scotch columns would do the job.

1 hour ago, Golden Beaver Distillery said:

Hi

Looking to acquire a 6" column vodka still from Affordable and was wondering if anyone is running one could tell me what type of volume they get out?

We will be starting with double-distilled distillate at 80 proof.

Thanks

Kris

It depends on lots of different variables so I do not give a specific answer in gallons per hr, I give it in run times which are dependent on the variables.  I need to know how much energy you put in and of course how many plates you are running and what output proof you are wanting.  If you want a good neutral at 190 and above you would need 20 plates.  With 120,000 BTUs of steam you could do the run in 8 to 9 hrs.  Of  course once operating temp is reached, you would be  backing off the steam well below 120,000 BTUs.  If you were running the baine marie electric version, the run would take 10 to 12 hrs.

If you have the 4 plate column  and are running 100 gallons of mash with 150,000 BTUs of steam per hour and  you are running whiskey with an average proof of 130 then you could do a run in 4 hrs with the column on very low reflux with one plate engaged and you would be backing the steam off just before operating temp is reached. I would not do a whiskey run that short.  I would stretch it out to 6 hrs so as to produce a better whiskey and I would run to 120.  If you are running the baine marie electric version the fastest whiskey runs from 40% low wines would be around 5 to 6 hrs.

If you are doing a run through 4 plates at 170 proof with 40% rum low wines running 120,000 BTUs of steam during heat up, the run time would be around 6.5 hrs. With the baine marie electric heating system it would take 7.5 hrs or so.  

Of course some distillations may take longer depending on the operator and other variables such as if the coolant temp is high.  There are also other things to consider, for example if you have 208v instead of 240v or 480v the run times will be longer than those given above for our  baine marie because 

The run times above were taken from our own research and feedback from customers.

Silk city wrote:

"I know there is some lit around this, but I haven't done any kind of thorough review.  But what's clear is, higher proof isn't always better.  It's different, could be better, or could be worse.  Just did some quick google-fu and found this one.  Clearly in this case, the optimal extraction is a mix of ethanol and water.  Using only pure ethanol yields a significant reduction in yield in comparison to water, or the 70%."

Silkcity,  I agree it depends on what you are extracting.  Ethanol pulls less terpenes from hops because terpenes are water insoluble.  Ethanol works best at extracting water soluble botanical compounds because ethanal is a polar solvent. 200 proof ethanol and 200 proof denatured alcohol (95% ethanol +5% heptane)  pulled 2% more CBD (same is true for THC) at a higher concentration then 192 proof, in my testing lab.   My customers are getting the same results.  200 proof is a stronger solvent and can be loaded heavier than 192 proof, which is why so many cannabis and hemp processors use it instead of 190.  The stronger the polar, solvent the more THC, CBD, CBN and CBG it pulls during the soak.   We soak for 30 minutes using agitation.  We use 1 gallon of ethanol per every 1 lb of ground up plant material, during the soak. 

When it comes to terpenes in MJ and in hops, water is a much better solvent. One reason for that is the fact that ethanol volatilizes terpenes causing them to change form.   I have built several stills that extract terpenes such as pinene from pine.  Those stills use water as the solvent and an oil water separator at the output.  Butane and propane are the best when it comes to extracting a full spectrum marijuana concentrate.  Unlike ethanol the majority of the terpenes are extracted along with CBD THC CBN and CBG and most importantly the terpenes are not volatilized.  A mix of 70% butane and 30% propane running green plant material gives you live resin.  Live Resin is considered to be one of the tastiest concentrates by connoisseurs and that is because of it's extremely high terpene level.  Butane will pull more intact terpenes from hops as well, but the process is expensive and dangerous and there is no reason to do it that way for spirits because even the heat and alcohol in the beer making process will cook off some terpenes or change their form.  The trepines that survive better in alcohol are what give the hoppy taste to beer.

Silk your chart is correct concerning hop oil and water extraction because terpenes are highly water insoluble. High proof ethanol works best in extracting water soluble compounds from botanicals because it is a polar solvent.  In that situation the higher the proof the better the extraction.   If a person is extracting flavors from botanicals they should research to see which solvent works best.

Hey everybody.  Make sure to enjoy drinking your solvent!!

kindred spirits, All 200 proof is anhydrous. Anhydrous simply means without water. 

200 proof is created from 192 proof using a molecular sieve.  We create molecular sieves for removing chlorophyll from cannabis oil but that process is a little different.  Anyway it's easy to find.  You can even get  200 proof certified organic.  We have it, MGP has it. Ultra Pure and many others.  You generally need to ask for it.  Here are the results from a google search as you can see 200 proof is offered by many different vendors, it's just not normally offered to distillers. https://www.google.com/search?q=200+proof+ethynol&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS912US912&oq=200+proof+ethynol&aqs=chrome..69i57.10223j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

On 11/15/2021 at 10:40 AM, Kindred Spirits said:

The highest proof Neutral you are most likely to find is 192 proof. 

Since your botanical bill is set at 120 I would try increasing the botanical amounts by 192/120 which equals 1.6x the original amount.

In terms of extraction times, you might want to try a couple smaller batches to see what amount of time works best for you to achieve your flavor goals.

kindred spirits. It's no problem at all to find and purchase 200 proof.  In fact I can sell it to you by the tanker truck load, 270 gallon tote, 55 gallon barrel and 5 gallon bucket and it doesn't cost that much more than the 192.  It's used in cannabis and hemp extraction processes.  The 200 proof will pull more cannabinoids into itself during extraction than 192 proof.  I imagine it does a better job with botanicals as well, because it can be loaded heavier than 192. 

I also sell the 192 and denatured ethanol that is 95% ethanol and 5% heptane.  The denatured is really cheap because it's not taxed, so a lot of cannabis and hemp processors use it to save money.  The ethanol heptane mix is removed by rotary evaporator under vacuum down to safe levels and the products are tested to make sure of that, however some processers will not use it.