Tirador

Don't go there ... even joking might get the stuff put on a no-sell list or something these days ...

I have minimal experience aging in wood ... but I remember hearing that if the proof was too high that the barrel would begin to errode and turn to mush. Maybe that's your issue? Any of you whiskey or Brandy guys want to comment on that? S.

Where can I get a cup of coffee for a quarter??? Heck, I'll meet you there! S.

I'm going to ad my two-cents at this point. First, a little background. I own one of the largest collections of rare books and papers on distillation in private hands in this country, possibly globally. I buy old documents, recipies and the like on a regular basis and I use them for my own research as a distiller. What I've found in the many years I've been collecting this material is that it is both invaluable in developing unique hand-crafted products ... and that most of it isn't rocket science. Rather it's more an art, to be practiced by a skilled artisan. Most of the older recipies and the like are simply lists of ingredients with minimal instructions, designed so that a journeyman distiller (i.e. someone that had been apprenticed either formally or informally) could use those recipies as a guide. It was then up to the distiller to practice the artistry of his (or her) craft to turn that list of ingredients and instructions into a good product. A recipe no matter how good can still produce a bad product is the distiller doens't know what he's doing, or if the ingredients are not suitable for the end product, etc. This is equally true for gin, liquor and absinthe recipes ... perhaps more so then whiskey. The other thing you find with these old recipes is that many of them call for either ingredients you DON'T want in a quality product or simply take short-cuts that while not nasty or dangerous, aren't what I would consider suitable for a premium product ... With the gin and liquor recipies, and with some older brandy and whiskey recipies as well you also find recipies used by "liquor compounders", where they take essences and colorants and blend them with alcohol to get a product that resembles say "Bourbon" or etc. I regularly see these hand-written recipies (of all types), and will often buy them if the price is right just to see how the distiller put his product together. I'm usually disappointed in that the majority of these are pretty common. Often, in fact I'd say 80% of the time or more with liquors they've simply been copied out of older books on distilling ... especially the common agricultural encyclopedias published mostly in France in the late 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, which were full of recipes and basic procedures (Roret, Collection De Nouveaux Manuels, Encyclopedia Agricole, and Enclyclopeie Des Connaissances Agricoles are all examples of these). The reason that most of these were pubished in France is that France was the center of the distilling world from the mid-1500s through around 1900. Even today many books throughout Europe, Asia and the America's on distillation draw heavily on these common sources from France. It was also common for American distillers to own copies of these books (and treat them as high-valued items). In 1777 for example, a common French book on distillation was worth as much as five months of a distiller's salary here in the U.S. Copies of these late 1700s and early 1800s books were commonly held and used by generations of American distillers as regular references at least until prohibition. One more point on old books and receipes on this subject. The books that were printed in the U.S. or London for export to the colonies from about 1750 through say 1830 are notably different then all these other old books, in that they were designed to be used by someone that was NOT a journeyman distiller. Those have much more practical detail on operating a distillery and the blow-by-blow processes of making basic distilled products (liquors) ... including whiskey (whisky) and apple-jack. Even with this group of books, however, a recipe is still only going to get you so far ... Now, having said that, and as others have mentioned, if the recipe has a good story that can be used for marketing then by all means pay the man what YOU think that marketing tidbit is worth ... NOTHING MORE. Oh, and if you ask real nice maybe I'll scan a couple recipes for you ... say pretty please. Just my two cents. S.

I've done this several times on my own ... it's a pretty simple and streight forward process. Like others have said, take the time to do the research, file for the mark ... and after trail period if no one has filed objections the mark is yours. You will get junk mail for all sorts of trade-mark lawyers, etc. when you do this though. Remember that, prior to the USPTO issuing the final trademark you must have "entered your mark into commerce". That means that you have to be using it commercially in some way (though not necessarily full blown distribution and sales), to qualify for them to issue you the final trademark. Next, the USPTO's web-site is pretty user friendly. You can search through their TESS system at (http://tess2.uspto.gov/) and you can file for your own trademarks electronically at their TEAS site (http://www.uspto.gov/teas/e-TEAS/index.html). Just remember to do the research before you file ... or your simply wasting the filing fees. Also, make sure you know a solid lawyer to call if there are issues. Do as much research as possible before you call the lawyer, and then specify exactly what questions you want the lawyer to assist you with. That will both increase your knowledge and minimize the amount of billible time the lawyer will charge you for. Bottom line is that for most, but not all trademark issues, if you take the time and do the research you can get this done. When you need to rely on a lawyer, use one, but make sure that you've taken the time to do as much of the research as possible prior to calling one ... Lastly, most states have Small Business Development Centers affiliated with the SBA. In many cases they have legal counselors that can also provide assistance with these matters. Again, do the research before you call and ask for help. My two cents. S.

Dick, Bottling at higher proof is one way to keep more of that oil in solution. Using other methods of flavering (essences for example) is another. Increasing the viscocity of the liquor (by adding sugar or other) is yet another. I don't know if any of these help ... but that's my input. I'm interested in seeing other people's answers.

Well said! Keep in mind as well that there are those among us (i.e. distillers) that are producing fine product and have been producing fine product for years using direct-fired stills. These include producers of virtually every type of spirits ever made. There are also some among us that firmly believe that direct-fired stills changes the flavor of their product for the better (and no I'm not one of them ... though they could well be correct). Heck, most of the smaller distilleries in Europe (and elsewhere) use direct-fired stills. For that matter, three of the four stills going into my new plant are direct-fired. Bottom line is, as Denver Distiller just said ... make sure you plan ahead when purchasing a still, that goes for heat source as well as still structure (nothing worse the trying to get solids out of a still designed solely for liquid washes ... if you're putting solids into your still (mash, fruit, herbs, whatever), then you had better consider both what the ramifcations of direct-heat might be to those solids AND how the heck your going to get those solids back out of the still once you're done with your run. Lastly keep in mind that the producers of modern steam-jacketed stills want you to buy their stock-product. They are salesmen after all (not that Christian Karl, B-Holstien and etc. don't make nice stills ... they absolutely do). S.

I am seeking an old-fashoneed style "Case" gin bottle and can't seem to find anyone that makes such a thing these days ... though a few products are bottled in that shape of bottle. I would like blown glass, but I would settle for either colored, or painted as long as it has the right shape and finish. Anyone have any ideas for me? Stephen

Great topic ... and I'm interested in learning from other people's answers. Having said that, you may be getting very small bits of plant material that are in the clumped together with a little essential oil. I've seen this with many of my various herbal products, a phenominon that is sometimes called the "sea monkey" effect with heavily herbed products like Absinthe ... and just like what you've described, it dissappears with a little shaking. The two ways in which I and others have dealt with this are: 1) To age in glass and then decant the liquor/liquere. 2) To filter (usually with some sort of a paper filter ... but you need to be careful as you can strain out the essential oils and stuff that give you a lot of flavor and depending on your process, color). Either that or you may be dealing with mineral salts from the mineral water, in which case switching to a filtered or distilled water should minimize this. Also, if you determine that this is the "sea monkey effect" as opposed to minerals ... and you decant your product, try throwing the chunkey stuff in with the next batch as you'll get flavors from the oils and etc. in the sediment. My two cents ... S.

I'm not sure about that ... but it doesn't smell right to me. His credit card ran? The Western Union to pay a carrier just doesn't sound right. Is this a major carrier? For an individual you can always specify that they use PayPal, and PayPal will back the transaction ... but they will charge you a fee. I think it's 3.5% if I'm not mistaken (not any more dear then say AmEx). S.

These sound like a common scam. Anyone that legitimately wants to buy your products from overseas will likely either offer a Letter of Credit or a PO with payment by wire transfer from their bank. They will also typically ask for samples (industry standard is usually 2 each 75cl or 70cl bottles, depending upon the country ... ). Ignore the credit card requests, but if a request for samples, with POs offered, etc. comes up them do the following. First, research if the company is legit (web-site, banking refrences, etc.). Second, determine if you really have the desire to deal with international transactions, international frieght and banking. These can be complex and difficult if you've never dealt with them before ... and there are risks. Anyway, good luck. If you do get a real international transaction feel free to ask me questions ... I've literally done more international trade them most international businessmen you'll ever meet (I ran Ford Motor Company's supply chain in Asia ...). I don't mind helping as long as you're serious and respect my time. Stephen

I guess the best way for me to answer this (as a professional distiller that tends to favor making herbal liquors) would be ... what do you want to actually make (herbal liquors covers a lot of ground ...), and on what scale do you want to make it (them ...er whatever). If you're thinking Gin, then you may or may not want something with an "herbal / botanical chamber", or not ... depending upon the process you're using. If your thinking something more along the lines of Absinthe, Benedictine, Trappistine and the like ... or anything where you're going to need to place solids directly into the kettle, then you're going to need to consider just how you're going to get them out when you're done ... (i.e. via a large sump, or by dumping the still, or scooping through a man-hole, or etc.) The same would be true for any pumic or stone fruit bandy (grappa, grippa, kirsche, tsepuro, etc.). So, what is it you're thinking of doing? How much, if any distilling experience do you have? S.

I've got several used / antique stills that need some work, ranging from 100 liters to 260 liters in size. Please let me know if you'd like more details. I can be reached at s.gould@gouldglobal.com

Folks, Here's a note from Chris Miller at Special Projects ... A used industrial equipment dealer that gets a lot of distillery equipment ... If anyone has equipment they want/need to get rid of he's a good resource to do so too. __________ Stephen, We have customers looking for some equipment. If you have either of these and would like to get them out of you way, please let me know. - Three station pressure sensitive labeler for 750 ml round bottles -(2) 200 gallon stainless steel open top tanks with 50 psi jackets We are always in need of equipment for customers and our stock. If you have any other items you would like to move please give me a call. Thank you, Chris Miller Phone: 502-778-3883 x30 Fax: 502-778-3787 E-mail: cmiller@specialprojects.com Check out our new online inventory catalog at: http://www.specialprojects.com We have new inventory arriving weekly! Come see our most recent acquisitions at: http://www.specialprojects.com/public/stage/just_in.asp Wanted items at http://www.specialprojects.com/public/stage/wanted.asp

Congratulations ... I'm just down in Golden ... I'd love to stop by and say hello. You're always welcome to use my library too if you feel the need to research something. Sincerely, Stephen A Gould - Proprieter / Distiller Maison De La Vie, Ltd. - A Village Distillery c/o Gould Global (216)831-0135 Fax: (216)831-0137 Mobile: 734-945-8178 www.village-distillery.com

I'm inclined to agree ... but it's not the producers that have changed as much as it is the consumers and the market in which we operate. The distilled beverage consumer of today typically has far more knowledge of what's what (if only due to higher literacy rates and the ease of acquiring information) then consumers had when many of the TTBs definitions were created. It's a different world, with much more information available and a significantly larger number of options for any consumer then ever before. As such, the legal definitions of what's what should eventually catch up to what's on the market ... we hope. That is why it is critically important for producers, and especially for smaller artisan producers to be politically aware and involved. If there is a legal definition that doesn't reflect reality in a product/market segment ... write TTB, write your congressman ... get the definition changed ... Just my two cents as always. S.

As many have stated here and elsewhere, TTB's definitions of what is what in the U.S. often don't line up with what the trade has historically has called verious products ... and that this is largely due to the history of distilling in the U.S. ... We all need to remember that many of the TTBs regs were originally put in place due to unscrupulous producers. In the case of whiskey many were using carmal and/or tea and other coloring agents to color unaged "common" whiskey or other spirits and pass it off as something it wasn't. Times are different now ... and the regs need to be updated to show what the products are, and yet still keep people from mis-representing what they're selling.

Andrew ... "the stuff sets" ... as in it becomes solid like cement? Have you tried lower quantities of Rye to reduce the viscosity, settling, etc? S.

At least according to what I've been told, and to the verious books in my library, Rye can be used by itself but it produces a very low yeild. It is more common to use a mixture of unmalted Rye, with Rye and/or Barley malt. Again ... based solely on what I've been told and read. From what I understand, the mash is made from unmalted Rye along with either Rye or Barley malt. This is then cooked and fermeted ... and most of the books I have state that specifically for Rye Whiskey the whole mash is fermented. They don't explain why and I know there's been a lot of discussion here about fermenting with or without solids for whiskeys ... but perhaps (a guess on my part) more of the unique flavor of the Rye comes through if you leave the solids in??? I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say about this topic as I've been thinking about Rye lately as well. S.

Seth, I am a successful entrepreneur, businessman, former management consultant and have been faculty at two major business schools. I am NOT interested in consulting, but am willing to give your business plan a read through and give you some critical advice if you want. I don’t mind giving other types of advice either … that you can use or not. It’s your business after all. I regularly mentor small businesses in this manner, and don’t mind doing so for you as long as this is a serious endeavor and that you respect that I am busy with my two businesses. Let me know … Stephen

What neither the author of the article or his "expert" seem to realize is that prior to the mid-1800s most of the whiskey produced in this country and for that matter in much of the world was "white" in that it wasn't aged. It was produced and then sold, crystal clear. In the time of George Washington, for example, the Mount Vernon distillery and other distilleries of the age typically sold both un-aged whiskey and an aged whiskey that was a "premium" product. Aged whiskeys typically made up only a small fraction of the whiskey sold at that time. This is not to say that aging wasn't known, only that it wasn't used for most whiskeys at that time. Aging as a common practice came later ... though whiskies of the time did typically get some aging, as it was stored in wooden barrels that were often charred has part of the cooperage process. Some argue that aged Scotch whiskey had a higher value in the U.S. more because it had time to age and mellow aboard ship then its younger white colonial counterparts, which typically came fresh from the still. Further, the comment that whiskey by definition is "aged" is in and of itself at least partially incorrect in that while modern definitions may reference aging, older definitions simply refer to a distillate made from fermented grain. In fact most pre-1900 books on distilling that discuss whiskey make little if any reference to aging at all. As an example, De Brevens "The Manufacture of Liquors and Preserves" published in French in the mid-1800s and in English in 1893 and considered as one of the most important distillation texts of its time, makes only a few references to Whisky/Whiskey, the most detailed only stating that it is distilled from Rye, Oats or Corn and is produced in Scotland, Ireland and the United States. While it does discuss related fermentation and distilling techniques for producing whiskey (and gin), no aging of whiskey is mentioned at all. It also states that "a brandy made from grain (Les Eau de vie de Grains) is known as either a whiskey or gin" the latter having had juniper berries, etc. added to the process. It does discuss coloring ... but again not specific to whiskey. By the early 1900s most distilling books do mention aging as a typical process in the manufacture of a whiskey, especially after the repeal of prohibition in 1935. Regardless, they still refer to unaged whiskey benefiting from aging to mellow the taste (as opposed to calling it something other than whiskey, that needs to be aged to become a whiskey). They almost always discuss coloring and flavoring options as well. The risk of a white whiskey is a harsh and firey taste, which can also be managed by other methods then aging such as filtering and/or a slight dulcification as is done with some gins and vodkas, etc. In fact, it could be argued that grain-based vodkas could also be called highly rectified "white whiskey" as they are distillates of fermented grain. Then, of course, there's the legal definitions according to U.S. Law of what's what ... as several others have stated. Just my two cents ... perhaps I read too much?

Carol Coy up at TTB specifically told me that it has to be a seperate "free standing" building ... fully detached from the any building where people live. That means that it can be a free standing garage, shed or barn. In fact I know of just such a distillery a few miles from where I was in Ohio, that is fully licensed and legal. Now in that state, the location must be zoned industrial or agricultural as opposed to residential ... and in the case of the distillery I mentioned it was zoned agricultural. As Delaware Phoenix just said, TTB's regs are heavily biased against whever might have been a "moonshiner" scenario ... and folks at TTB have told me as much. The reason I know this is that I have a large old Al-Quitar still from Spain that I wanted to set up outside our distilled beverage plant and cook on with an open wood fire (just like how it was originally used), but TTB said that was a not allowable no matter what scenario I suggested.

Hey, I've helped a couple of people build columns using either copper scrub pads or slices of small copper tubing ... and I know of several folks that have installed similar columns on their stills both for rectification and to deal with the sulfer. The rectification probably isn't as good or as controllable as with a plate-column, but it's cheap, easy and does help deal with the sulfer. I'm not sure how much copper is enough, but ... There are a couple of folks on here I know that should speak up on this one, and I'm interested in seeing what they have to say. It might come in handy one of these days, just in case I buy that used 500 gallon stainless vodka still I was looking at the other day, or something. S.

Have you tried Malt Products? I'm not sure what their sugar pricing is like but they're a pretty decently priced supplier for other related products as long as you're buying in quantity. Here's their site. I know they do evaporated cane juice syrup and a bunch of various other sweetners, including things like agave syrup. http://www.maltproducts.com Might be worth giving them a call and asking. S.

Actually it is against U.S. law to operate a distillery in your home, and no you can't get it licensed. Delaware Phoenix posted this back in April in another thread. It's worth reading ... and her Absinthe is worth drinking too ... Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:42 PM Hi. Sorry but you cannot run a distillery from your home. For the regs (regulations) you can find them at http://www.ttb.gov/s...rits-regs.shtml You'll want to pay particular attention to 27 CFR Part 19 Distilled Spirits Plants. Subpart F, says you can't operate in a dwelling. Over here at the TTB, is the application packet. There's all sorts of documents to download, and looking them over will give you an idea of the kinds of information you'll need to provide TTB. I read somewhere that someone thought it was like joining the CIA. The front page of my original website said "Distilleries only crazy people start". I think that's really true. I'm not saying you shouldn't try and start a microdistillery where you live, only that you need to understand what you might be getting into. You're basically starting a business, one that is heavily regulated. Maybe any business is difficult to start, but distillery seems more fraught than others. Good luck. Delaware Phoenix Distillery Physically: 144 Delaware Street, Walton, NY 13856 USA Snail Mail: P.O. Box 245, Walton, NY 13856-0245 USA On the web: www.delawarephoenix.com