MG Thermal Consulting

I used to work in Charlotte selling refrigeration chillers.

Good luck to you.

Mike Gronski

www.mgthermalconsulting.com

Mike,

Hello from down the Rd in GA.

Every once in a while I pass thru KY on the way to NY.

Hopefully one of these times you may be up and running!

Let me know if you have any cooling issues I can assist you with.

Mike Gronski

MG Thermal

www.mgthermalconsulting.com

Congrats! Sounds like you've got a great start!!

I had a fellow that drained much of the water out of a bulk tank mix, chilled it and then returned it to the bulk tank.

He is going to attack the issue of the bulk tank refrigeration this spring- I will keep you aprised how his project turns out.

I recently talked to a fellow that picked up a bulk tank. Fortunate for him the refrigeration worked, so it was worth it.

The mass of the fluid in the tank helped him out- it's always nice to have a bit of flywheel effect on startup.

I like to oversize the reservoir to keep from overloading the refrigeration loop.

The bulk tank fellow was up in WI, I believe.

Email me if you want me to look up the guy's name.

The key point of brazed plate exchanger use is that it won't tolerate any solids or material that can possibly coat (foul) the passages.

If the excahnger becomes fouled in the slightest, there will be practically no heat exchange and a sizable pressure drop for the pump to overcome.

Mike

Roger makes an excellent point about the heat transfer coefficients, SS vs. copper.

It will cost you over twice the HP (same time profile) to cool stainless.

This is why glycol chillers are used with colder temps for SS (like wineries).

Now this doesn't matter so much if you have your own chilled water source but converting to refrigeration it will eventually tell with the power bills.

The same is true on the heating side.

..Like Sherman said, larger distilleries use large heat exchangers and with it large refrigeration chillers to get the end result.

..If cap expense for cooling equipment wasn't a serious issue, a two stage cooling plant would take advantage of ambient cooling and reduce KW input of the system, but usually a chiller plus plate/frame, shell/tube or tube/tube is used.

..smaller distilleries try to "make" the refrigeration work by large storage chilled water tanks or other means to give a smeblance of a large cooling plant in action. The trouble here is that it only works in batches and onlty as long as your storage chilled temp doesn't get wiped out to fast. Lately I've seen smaller distilleries finding old bulk milk tanks and using that to make their chilled water or adding to the capacity with a booster chiller to get the job done. Often the refrigeration part of the bulk tank is shot, but it's valuable as storage.

Jacketed designs generally require lower coolant temperatures to achieve target produict temperatures simply because you have a limit on the heat transfer area.

External exchanger systems give you more pop, but that extends to your wallet as well.

..under utility, water cost and sewage is beoming a huge issue, especially if you can't cool your product with city water being limited (for whatever reason).

At some point you'll have to think about a refrigerated chilled water loop- most get sticker shock when they find out the cost of it.

Questions arise about buying used equipment, value of it versus new when you consider the amount of valuable time and money wasted when preventing the "used" from being "used up".

What exactly is it they are having trouble sizing, pricing or installation?

The first two items are a matter for the boiler distributor.

The last item is a matter for the installing contractor who knows the local codes.

It is rare that a manufacturer can get involved when they do not know the local codes (they usually have a disclaimer, if you read fine print). In fact, most representatives are prohibited from making concrete recommendations- a legal issue that is taken up by consultants and contractors.

With that said, even if you get general knowledge from those here with steam boilers doesn't necessarily mean they are applicable in your locale.

Local codes have killed many a great idea, so beware,

Hope this helps.

Congrats!

All the best for 2013 and if you catch a snag with water/glycol chilling, give me a shout!

Mike Gronski

Just to let some of you bigger operators, there are co-gen absorption chillers out there, running off steam to provide down to 42F water.

These chillers do require some water for the condenser which can be supplied by well or a closed circuit cooler or cooling tower.

Regards,

Mike

Likewise.

BTW, I have a 10 ton and 40 ton chiller used (less than 1 year) ready to go at a reduced price.

Mike Gronski

MG Thermal Consulting

I am sourcing single phase chillers, from 1 to 10 HP, from a custom manufacturer in VA.

He has supplied to the local wineries and I worked with the fellow probably 15 years ago at the same company that built chillers and commercial refrigeration systems (cooler and freezer boxes).

I have noticed a problem, both with cost and lead time from most manufacturers who want to standardize on 460/3/60 and 230/3/60.

"Making" the 3 phase is not preferable but has been unavoidable to some.

I can send a picture of one of their units for those interested.

They can (and have) but you have more room to move the equipment outside of a wall and piping over to the process and be aware of where fumes can escape- especially when service work is done.

I worked on a project where the plant had an open overhead that fumes dissipated out from but exploded at their substation when an electrician was working on something at the sub. The substation was probably 35-40 yds away from the plant.

This was a large plant and a perfect storm of circumstances had to arise for this to happen.

Good luck, Dave!

Wonderful area, you guys make me miss NY more and more!

Mike

Hey Jed,

Yeah, I've been involved in the audio business for 37 years... I also write for Tape-Op magazine and have done a lot of beta testing for most of the manufactures out there. So my name has gotten around a bit in them there circles.

Too bad it's no longer a "healthy" industry.

This industry seems very exciting to me... time for my 2nd act in life now.

My son went to college for sound recording- by the time he left, there wasn;t a job to be had!

He's now an electrician- a twisted road for a Jazz musician.

Please let me know in the future when you are set for your coling equipment, I am looking into building a small cooling system (chiller) that would roll into a van for testing and sales.

Regards,

Mike Gronski

678-773-2794 Cell

There is a company in Indiana, Reelcraft, that manufacturers spring loaded and electric motor hose reels, but I don't know if they make sanitary reels.

Worth a phone call.

Mike

I'm one of those guys that love "old stuff" - must have been a hoarder in a previous life!

Your set up does look great!

Good Luck!

Mike

I agree with Richard.

FDA is not the same as ASME or has anything to do with construction or material integrity.

Personally, I would have a tough time putting a product out there without testing it to ASME standards.

I can see UL or CSA getting involved sooner or later and then the s*** will hit the fan.

If I had the skills, I'd have you sign me up!! I would love to move back North!

I have provided cooling equipment for some Carl installations and enjoy working with them.

Good luck!

Mike

Steve,

I was just curious, do the Chinese outfits you use supply the "MIL Certs" for the materials used for manufacture?

I have heard of the problems with the Chinese not being able to provide certs or equally worse, providing counterfeit certs.

Mike

I specify and supply all kinds of cooling systems, among which are the smaller portable chillers.

With chillers, it depends on what temperature you ask for on the supply side, the colder you go, the larger the HP and sometimes if 24F for cold filtering, a larger circulating pump.

Another thing how exactly much BTU/hr you are asking for. If you need you process time shorter, then the HP goesw up again.

For instance, a 3.5 HP, 24F chiller for indoor installation rated at about 17,000 btu/hr can get up to $10,000 or a little less depending on options.

$10,000 can buy you a 50F chiller that will be 5 - 7.5HP for indoor chillers, a couple grand more for outdoor ones.

The best thing to do is get as much information together to pin point the total btu/hr load to ask for.

The last thing is what voltage you have: 230/1/60, 230/3/60 or 460/3/60 (some manufacturers are cutting out 230 volt units, so you have to buy a step up transformer).

Please let me know what you need and I would be happy to price something up (also if this is an urgent need or can wait a couple months.)

Regards,

Mike