Max Action

I'm looking at jacketed tanks to use for mashing grain, and looking for opinions on alternating steam and cold water through the same jacket for heating/cooling. I've visited other distilleries where this is being done, but I'm worried about stressing the steel with big swings in temperatures. Am I just being paranoid, or should I also be looking for a separate heat exchanger for cooling? The tank I'm currently considering is used surplus from a pharmaceutical company made by a reputable fabricator, and rated for 50 psi on the jackets.

Maybe that was too many questions for a single post. How about the lyne arm? Any thoughts about the 3" diamater tubing being sufficient?

I'm thinking about building a 500 gallon still to be used for stripping runs. I'd repurpose a 500 gallon jacketed tank as a pot, and have local fabricators build and attach lyne arm and condenser. Just looking for ballpark suggestions on sizes for various components. Right now I'm thinking about using a 499K BTU atmospheric boiler (about 80% efficient, so net around 400K) . I can do the calculations on degrees/hour/pounds of water theoretically, but curious about real world expectations and if that's going to be enough energy to strip 500 gallons of 10% wash in a reasonable time. Also thinking about using 3" stainless tube as lyne arm since it's readily available with easy connectors, but not sure if that's big enough to prevent a bottleneck. Then there are the issues of the type and size of condenser. I would want something to keep up with a stripping run at full blast, but don't have the spare mental energy to figure out how to do those calcs regarding heat exchange material and area. I assume the traditional route is a stainless shell and tube condenser with ??? sqft of tubes. But I'm also considering building a tube-in-tube coiled condenser with copper tubes. My first thought would be towards commonly available 3/4" copper for interior tube and 1" for exterior, but i would need to figure out how many feet I'd need, and whether reducing from my 3" (or whatever) lyne arm to 3/4" tubing would create too much restriction. One more thing I'm considering is including an empty column on top of the pot for possible upgrade to a spirit still in the future. I'm thinking a 10" stainless pipe about 3 feet tall that I could eventually add a small reflux condensing coil and copper raschig rings (for non-vodka spirits), but I'm no chemical engineer so I would definitely appreciate any feedback on that. Thanks!

I think ADI was in the best position to become a non-profit trade association, but continuing as a for-profit business owned by an individual makes something the ACDA necessary. Craft distillers need an organization, not DISCUS, to represent and promote their interests. I've posted previously on this site inquiring what the benefits of ADI membership included, but never receieved a satisfactory answer, and never saw any benefits (other than an email newsletter/advertisement) during the time that I was a member myself.

For such a small space, perhaps one of these with some PVC pipe should suffice (still going to cost hundreds of $): http://www.shieldair.com/marc/PDF/documents/FANS/MSFX_Series_Explosion_Proof_Muffin_Fan.pdf

Check out the Beacon 110 from RKI. It's their recommended unit for ethanol. Based on my own quote several months ago, I would assume it's priced in the ballpark of $1600. But you don't want to skimp on something so critical to your life and business. Just make sure you're very explicit that you want it calibrated to ethanol. It has a different calibration than their normal hexane standard. This is for a single location. Depending on the size of your operation, you may want to inquire about upgrading that can monitor multiple locations. http://www.rkiinstruments.com/pages/beacon110.htm

You should consider hiring a fire code consultant or engineer. If you have them help you prepare a plan you'll have much better luck with your local officials and your own personal safety.

One more scenario- Our distiller is aware of potential vapors from his barrels, and decides to build a small storage room separated from the rest of the warehouse with fire-rated walls and doors. Concerned with 100 barrels enclosed in such a small space, our distiller adds a ventilation system that runs 24/7 and specifically exhausts from the floor level. Then one evening after work everyone in town loses power. It was really hot that day and too many people had the AC running. The power company couldn’t keep up with the demand. But that’s ok. Our distiller used up as much food from the fridge as he could, and had a big BBQ in the back yard that night and got a great night’s sleep. It wasn’t until the next morning, over 12 hours later that they got the power turned back on. It didn’t occur to the distiller that in just one warm night without power the un-vented barrel room had accumulated a couple hundred cubic feet of flammable vapor. When the power was restored the exhaust fan motor kicked back on with a little spark, as motors tend to do. Unfortunately, our distiller originally decided not to get the $3000 explosion proof fan and got a $300 Chinese model online instead. As he figured it, that exhaust was just a precautionary and redundant system anyway. He read it somewhere on the internet that you couldn’t get explosive levels of vapor from a barrel’s angel share.

I think your conclusion could be misleading to some and, perhaps even potentially dangerous. It seems you're assuming the ethanol vapor will mix homogenously with the entire volume of the room, and your assumption of 4 air exhanges per hour sounds way too high to me. I'll just assume your math is in the ballpark for the vapor. So if you say 5.33 L/hr per barrel, that's 4.5 cubic feet of explosive vapor per day. Who has just one barrel? That's 450 cubic feet of explosive vapor for someone that's got 100 barrels in storage. Since ethanol vapor is heavier than air, it will tend to collect at floor level if there isn't a lot of air turbulance to mix it up. Let's now assume that same distiller has a 2500 sqft warehouse. In one day their barrels could create a deadly layer of ethanol a couple inches deep at floor level- right where pumps, compressors, and extension cords are located. What about over a 3 day weekend? Or maybe the distiller locks up tight and goes on vacation for two weeks in the middle of summer when it's nice and hot out? I could see a lot of vapor building up in that time, and even if it is only a 2% average annual barrel loss I'm sure the rate is proportionally much higher in summer than winter. Your numbers would double if it's 4% per year in August. One remedy, as you hinted at, is air exchange. But I certainly wouldn't treat that as an assumption. Who really has 4 exchanges per hour? Let's assume our distiller's warehouse has 20' ceilings. That's 50,000 cubic feet of space At my warehouse I have a really big (and noisy) exhaust system capable of venting 3600 cfms. Maybe that's ~4 theoretical exchanges per hour if our distiller had a similar system, but again we can't expect perfect mixing of the air, especially if the vent system is above floor level. And even then, who really leaves their exhaust system running 24/7? I'm willing to admit I don't. It's simply not practical to heat and cool that much fresh air. However I don' t have a lot lof barrel storage, and I do have an electronic vapor detector (specifically calibrated to ethanol) that's connected to an alarm system. I can just imagine a lot of scenarios where barrel vapor could create a hazardous sitauation. Maybe some of those scenarios aren't very likely, but with hundreds of distilleries out there an unlikely scenario isn't exactly that unlikely. At the very least, you should consider that barrels will contribute to your overall vapor load, in combination with all your other activities with potential vapor leaks.

Is there a rational explanation why a glass cyclinder would differ from a plastic one? Maybe static charge on the plastic or something?

Rather than an all copper boiler, couldn't you electroplate copper onto the interior surface of stainless?

Your money would probably be better spent hiring a fire protection engineer to develop a written plan for your specific operations and your building. If you strictly follow the code for F1 occupancy, you should be fine with your building inspector, and an official plan from an outside expert will go a long ways towards helping the inspector understand that.

I'm considering using a natural fruit extract as a flavor in one of our products. I'd be curious if anyone here has had luck with their Formula approval using extracts as a normal ingredient, or if the TTB considers it a compounded flavor that requires a "Formula and Process for Nonbeverage Product." Assuming it does require TTB approval as a flavoring, anyone have experience with how long this process takes and how involved it is?

Thanks, I haven't had any luck finding any specific info on this yet. The local officials probably didn't know what they're talking about. Just more work for me I guess. Is anyone else here doing anything specific to secure their containers of spirits?

We're using stainless 55g drums to store our high proof spirits prior to bottling. We're in a seismically active area, and local officials are saying I need to brace or chain my drums to a wall for safety. Similar to chaining up a compressed gas cylinder or straping a residential water heater. They were unable to provide any specific code reference. My thought is that these "UN Approved" drums are routinely used as shipping containers, and the center of gravity is probably such that it is unlikely to tip over in an earthquake. And if it did, these containers are designed to withstand such treatment. Does anyone have any input on this? I have tried searching for anything in the code without much luck. I know drums are routinely used to transport and store fuel, so I would imagine this info must surely be out there, but Google is letting me down.

Cole Parmer has a convenient chemical compatability chart, just Google it. They rate EPDM compatability with ethanol as "Excellent," but Silicone as only "Good."

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll skip the VFD for now, as I don't plan on using the pump for hours at a time.

I've been using relatively cheap centrifugal pumps that I didn't really worry about abusing. But I just upgraded to a nice (and expensive) explosion proof model. I know there is really detailed information about operating pumps, complete with all kinds of performance charts and graphs, but I'm just looking for some practical real-world tips. Can I just plug it in and control flow rate using an outlet ball-valve? Or should I invest in a variable frequency drive so I can control the flow by adjusting the rpm? I do already know it's not good to run it fully closed, with no flow. But I don't want to burn it up with a lot of low flow use either. Also, what about not running it dry? Does that mean stopping my fluid transfer before the tank is fully drained, or does that mean transfer all the fluid and then turn the pump off real quick as soon as it starts to run dry?

Just curious if anyone has any thoughts on marketing (on-line brand development, press releases, etc.) a new product before that label is approved by TTB?

Anyone ever try applying for a "Certificate of Label Exemption" for distilled spirits? I understand it would only allow in-state sales, but I'd be curious to hear how long it took at if there were any particular pros or cons. My thinking is it might be useful for limited-release products, hopefuly advantage of a quicker approval.

I'm curious, what are others doing for spill control? Do you have a plan prepared in advance and containment supplies at the ready? My local officials haven't required me to prepare a spill control plan, so it hasn't been a high priority for me yet. However I do want to be prepared. We store our bulk alcohol in 55 gallon stainless steel drums, and I suspect 55 gallons could be a potential volume of spill I'd have to deal with. My first thought is fire safety, which would require quickly containing it and preventing contact with any sources of ignition. After that's accomplished, there's the task of cleaning it up. I know I can purchase a commercial spill control kit, with absorbent pads and socks, but I'd like to hear other ideas and make sure I'm thinking this through completely. So far my plan is to contain to prevent a fire, and then just wash it down the drain with plenty of water to dilute.

Of course there is tons of misinformation on the internet, this forum included, but it's still better (in my opinion) to share ideas rather than not. Originally I was thinking about starting a thread about Spill Control measures, but wasn't sure which section it would be best to post in.

I think Safety topics need a dedicated space. Any admins here able to add this feature?

Is it designed for a single bottle, that you just hold while it gets blasted? Or do you have something more complicated with stands/brackets for holding multiple bottles? I've watched bottle filling in other distilleries where they just blew out one bottle at a time, and it didn't look very efficient to me when you're doing a lot of bottles. I'm guessing we'll just build our own, also with a foot-pedal.

We're planning on blasting our bottles with compressed air to clean them of dust before filling. Does anyone sell such an air blaster specifically built for this, or is everyone just using a DIY contraption? If you built your own, care to share some details? Normally I enjoy inventing my own equipment, but lately I've been finding less and less time for tinkering and wouldn't mind taking advantage of someone else's experience (and/or trial and error). Thanks!