Scrounge

Post it?

Hey peteb, I think your whisky trail web site has herpes or something? It's crashed my computer the dozen times I've tried to look at it. Almost came up once, then crashed and erased my web browser, history, and all my open tabs. That sucked. Scrounge

I'm thinking I read on ttb site some info on doing "made with organic ingredients" or some similar statements, that don't require any application fees or run around. Look on they're web site, I'm certain they addressed "organic" statements for distilled spirits. Scrounge

Well we discussed it back and forth on the phone, with me giving her #s of things like anticipated gallons, ph, and other info, so she could think about it, for free. Then she charged me $450 to come out and take site measurements and draw the plot plan to submitt for the "site and soil analysis" , with $100 of that crediting to the system design. County just approved that and were waiting for the rain to stop so we can dig test holes and see how much soil I have. Then she can design the leach field based on that info, which she's estimating at around $1500 for design. That's pretty standard around here, $1500-2000 for a septic engineered. Then you still have to dig and install the system per the design. I've budgeted another 5-6k for that, with me doing all the work myself. We'll see?

My county has approved my rural distillery project with a septic. Environmental just ordered that I hire an engineer to design my waste water system, and they have to accept what the state certified engineer puts her stamp on. In my case, after much discussion, we are basically doing a standard septic except ill have a above ground pre-system tank where things can cool off and be ph adjusted before entering the system. Then a time release dosing will let it go in intervals, so not to over load the system. Designed to handle 500g a day. Super simple and just a standard septic plus a 500-600g stainless tank+time release system. Also there is a cider/brandy maker near me who is on a septic, and he's pretty large scale, multiple 5000g fermenters. He said he's only had to pump it once when they dumped what he called "some real nasty stuff" . My system is designed with the notion that all grain will be separated out before liquid heads down the drain. Scrounge

Wow 10k is not bad for that size. That must be before the boiler to run it?

What do you mean by relatively inexpensive? How many k's is that? Scrounge

Dang Roger, that's some scientificness going on there. So if you we're suspected of doing it, you certainly could get caught. Doesn't sound worth it. Call it moonshine. Scrounge

Hey Clay. I respect your opinion and approach as well. And I here all of what your saying so passionately. Id love to sit down and share a drink of your what-ever-you-get-to-call-it. I bet it's a nice drink. I was only trying to say, make what you want-call it what it is. The honesty comment was not aimed at you per se. I don't know you. I just ment in the broad sense that one could spike there grain ferments with sugar and not say, and claim it to be all grain and label it as that way. And the keep it simple part is that I don't understand all the hub -bub about it. You or I didn't make the rules and we don't get to change them(or at least I got other shit to do besides trying to change them). Make your product, it's your business. Sell the shit out of it. It's what we all aim to do. You just can't call that mash bill whiskey. Simple. Can't you call it moonshine? Nothing wrong with that name. It's pretty popular right now. Respect Scrounge

"I'm wondering how strict this is." That's kind of a funny question. Of course it's strict, it's not just someone's opinion, it's the law on the matter. It's not about telling you what to make. You can make what you want. There are laws that say what you can call something. It protects the consumer from being misled. Whiskey isn't made with sugar. You can't say pretty please, it just isn't made with sugar. If you enjoy what you are making, and want to try and sell it, then you be up front and honest about what it is. Find out how you need to label it and be proud of your product. I get why you wanna add the sugar, but then your bypassing all the hard work and research and development that you need to do to get your yields to a happy place, if it is whiskey your wanting to make. And if not then just call your product what it really is. It's simple really. Not trying to be rude, just keep it simple and honest. Scrounge

I have contacted Jim McCoy as well as some others about handling the permitting for me. I won't speak for him as to his prices but can say it seemed affordable to me. Others were more and some much more, and his experience in the field (retired ATF or ttb) gives me confidence in his ability to make sure you have it right the first time. Call him up and ask him yourself. He's a real nice guy! Scrounge

Hey Natrat. I'm hoping not to have to RO my mash water, but my concern(with my particular water supply) will be getting the iron down to an acceptable level. From what I understand, iron can foul up ferments if to high of levels. Ill need RO for my diluting water anyway, so ill have to do some tests and see what my actual ppm of iron is after my initial filtering, and size my RO system accordingly. Any thoughts on exceptable levels of iron for ferments, anyone? Thanks. Scrounge

Hey Salish. Issue was just with a commercial operation running on a non commercial well. Commercial well has a "sanitary cap" and is drilled to a different diameter. All good though, I put my entire process down on paper for them, and once they understood, they said my well would be fine. I just have to submit water sample every 3 months for tests to third party lab "about 20$" . There looking for chloroforms mostly, if I spelled that right. Bacteria and the like. I was pretty happy with that outcome. MG- check out APEC water filters I vouch for there systems as they've been keeping my house water (off the same well) clean for 3 yrs now. And super friendly folks. In spring I have a considerable amount of iron in my water (its orange) and there system removes it great. I have a flat black sink in my kitchen with no ring or other deposits after 3 yrs. anyhow, I sure do love reading this forum while I perfect my circus act of jumping through hoops! Pulled permits to get started building, and I do see a light out on the horizon, and I think it's a reflection off my new copper beauty!!! Woooooo hooooooo! Scrounge

Wow that's a beautiful building! I'm in California though.

Yes MG, I plan on installing a 4 part filter system like I already have serving my house off the same well. It goes like this. Big sock filter of whatever micron I want (I think I have a 20micron at the house), a magnesium cartridge iron removal system( back flushes itself every couple days), a ceramic calcium system( doesn't use salt to handle the calcium, pretty cool) and a charcoal finisher. Water at the sink in my house is approx 30 ppm after this system. And then RO available after that for diluting/proofing water and maybe even RO the mash water? Not sure if I really need to do the mash water? Might anyway just to ensure consistency as my water changes throughout the year. Mostly fluctuations of iron in the spring/early summer when there's a lot of water flowing in the ground. The systems I have are from APEC and have been running in me casa for 3 years now and are just showing signs of needing a media change out. Super excited over here! Time for test trenches for soil analysis for waste water removal, and then permits can happen. Woohoo!

County said I could use my well!!! Just have to do water quality tests every 3 months. Sweet!!! Scrounge

Hey Dehner. We all know that, but I've got to get the county to see it that way. The state has replied that "since this water source doesn't serve 25 or more people, that its between me and my county official". So I'm gonna gather up as much published science to make my case and present the info, in hopes of them granting a "variance" to the rule. Got my fingers crossed!

Thanks philf! I wanna live in a "village"! On my every day, I live in a bubble. But apparently it's still permeable to my county rulings. Not so much a zoning issue. I'm fine there. It's just, ther saying a residential well isn't fit for a source of water for a commercial business. Thanks again. Scrounge

Hey philf. My current well is at about 300' , and I've only got about 5gpm. The well drillers here think they can get me better (10 or 20gpm) at around 500 to 600' Plus they want 2k for the casing and another 1k for the seal. Plus pipe, pump, pressure tank systems, and well house, it starts getting up there quick! Apparently here a "commercial" we'll has to be 12" bore and have 100' casing regardless of what we drilled through, cement sealed down the entire casing. Sanitary seal theyre calling it. Did your county have any concerns like that? Could I refer my county to your project? Don't wanna do that if there's a chance of ruffling the feathers for your project, but if they directly stated your well requirements and you aren't worried about I'd love to give my county some other reference point. Thanks. Scrounge

Thanks for the replies. Seventh son- I believe they are concerned with my mash water(would seem most logical?) but I did throw the idea out of having treated water brought in. Good to know that worked for you. A local municipal source said they'll sell me water at $5 per 1000g plus $35 per day I want to pump it. So that doesn't seem to bad except for expense of hauling? But shoot, I could buy a tank for back of my truck, or a water tender truck for that matter, and still be way better off than drilling a new well. At least initially. MG- You are definitely on my list of people to consult with once I get a greener light for GO! I figure ill need at least a small chiller set up for closed loop cooling of still/mash. I've got calls out to every state public health authority I could find a # for so hopefully ill get a definitive answer soon. Anyone else out there on a well or have another similar situation? Scrounge

So I'm dealing with my county on health/environmental issues so I can get permits to build my distillery, and they have concern with me using my residential well for a commercial business. Pretty much impossible to turn a residential well into a commercial one. So that leaves me drilling a new well(20-30k), or proving my case that it shouldn't matter on account of all the boiling and distilling going on in the process, or trying to take it to a state level and HOPE I get the answer I'm looking for. Trying to prove my case right now as they seem to lump me in with what ever fits best in there eyes (food product), when trying to figure out what codes I should comply with. They have asked me to help them find examples of others that might be on a well? Anybody on a well out there? Is it a commercial well? This could be a major setback that wasn't in the budget. A good example for that thread about "do your best estimate, and then double it" for start up costs. Anyone have any real world experience with this one? In any state? I'm in CA. They've got me hiring a consultant for a waste water system. That one I saw coming. But not this. HELP? Scrounge

Yeah that's the stuff. Holler at me when ur ready for a visitor up there Mendo, I'm up there on occasion. Have friends in Wilits and Fort Brag. Good day! Scrounge

Hey mendo. There's a product that's like rock wool but its a ceramic blanket. Can handle direct flame contact no problem. Don't quote me but, ok in excess of 3000f. I've been using it for years in glass furnaces and kilns in glass shop. My glory holes are side fired directly into the blanket on the other side and it lasts indefinitely. It's same tech as the tiles on the bottom of the space shuttle. It's not very expensive either, maybe couple hundred for 3' x 50' if I remember right. It's been a couple years since I bought any though. We just call it fiber blanket and its available from any refractory supply place. There's one in Richmond Ca, forget name but I've bought from them a lot . One day I wanna see what your doing up in your hills? Mendo is some of the prettiest country. I'm a start up near Sonora, Yosemite ish area. Working with engineer now for my waste water treatment, hope to be building in a few months and file with the federalys this summer! Anyhow holler if you want more info on that stuff. One thing, though, u wanna cover it with something, don't wanna be bumping into it, breathing it. Scrounge

Hi I'm trying to wrap my head around the use of steam for heating. I get the basics, boiler makes steam, steam goes through jacket, heat transfers, condensate returns to boiler. I'd like to understand the way you control your steam since obviously you need more or less at different points of your process. I'm reading in this thread (if im understanding it correctly?) about a common use of gate valves to control the flow of steam, with some presets on psi at the boiler to cycle it on/off to keep up with demand. Anyone know of any articles or diagrams to study to better understand this? I'm getting a bit confused at the moment, when I read of multiple valves used to control this? What is the function of each valve in the system design as opposed to opening one valve to let the steam in. Just having a hard time visualizing things from reading words instead of looking at a boiler system or diagram of one. Also wondering if this method of steam control (after adjustments for any assumptions or lack of understanding on my part) is the preferred method? So, manual control of valve(s), adjusted based on visual observation of temp gauges and output of still? I'm not interested in expensive motorized gate valves to do this for me, but (with my lack of a full understanding) I wonder about simple automation based on a set point controller telling the boiler go/no go from thermocoupler reading mash temp in still? My current thinking is it might work fine for the still but not so good for mash tun? Maybe to much problems with over shoot and such for that? If anyone has any thoughts for me, I thank you kindly! If anyone wants to let me pick there brain on the phone for a few on this one, I would thank you even more! Scrounge

Thanks so much for the replies! Nothing like how spending a bunch a $, can make something fairly simple seem so complicated! Feeling more confident now though. Much appreciated! Scrounge