delaware_phoenix

I'm a QB hater. I know my QB was for the Mac and it wasn't as up to date as the PB version when I got it. I couldn't get the manufacturing version for the Mac at the time I was looking for software. But I quickly got tired of entering everything in my checkbook and then entering it again in QB, and my checkbook always balanced, and I could never get QB to balance. I got so tired of cursing and yelling at QB that I gave up on it. Except for printing invoices and recording that payment has been received. Everything else I do with spreadsheets. Since distilling is a manufacturing business, so an accountant that understands that business would seem to me to be able to understand distilling.

The capital letter B followed by a right parenthesis ) is the shorthand for the smiley face the cool smiley face with his/her sunglasses on. So anytime you have a list A) and you get embedded smiley face. I personally think all government documents should be filled with smiley faces in order to bring some sanity to such things. But yes, I'm a rebel.

Chuck's article from Malt Advocate can be found over at ISC's web site, here.

If you have 3 phase, you can also get an electric steam generator/boiler. Not much cheaper than a gas fired one, but easy hookup.

Well I'm sure there a number of BIG DISTILLERIES in KY that know quite a bit about this, but they're not talking to us. It's an area where we (the micros) are at a disadvantage compared to them (the majors). imo

Be aware that the article is talking about comparing a 1.5 gallon barrel to a 48 gallon barrel (6 liters vs 180 liters), both uncharred oak.

125 proof is the current legal maximum barrel entry proof for whiskey (US). A common figure. Sometimes proof even goes up, and you have these barrel proof expressions that are sold above 125 proof. So that's probably not the problem, if there's a problem at all.

I'm sure you really mean it too! Edit: Originally I was going to write something, then changed my mind, now I'm back to writing something. The whole fascination with moonshine and moonshiners by both small producers and the public is a doubled edged thing. And I don't think it's all positive in our favor. If the public comes at it from the "it's illegal/illicit" angle, they might not be as interested when they find it's just some 80 proof spirit, and it won't make you go blind. And it's kind of hard for the producer to publicize that they were a moonshiner before going legit. I know there are people who have had a moonshining grandparent or two, or other relative. At least they have a connection in their family, and in their region. Most people these days have little to no experience with pot distilled unaged whiskey. And when they have it, they don't know what to make of it being so unlike the column-distilled brown whiskey they're so used to drinking. So while there's a lot of ink being written about it, it's quite unclear whether people will be interested in buying it as more than a curiosity. Maybe it'll be different in other parts of the country.

Does that include all the so-called craft distillers (and now majors too) that use moonshine and moonshiner references in order to sell their products?

OK, what does the whiskey taste like?

White Labs does yeast analysis, maybe they can do something to determine the source of the aroma. I gather from you statements that you have used the barrels and you're getting the musty aroma, or is it that they've been stored for 4-5 months and now you have this aroma?

Chuck, there is a specific phraseology that must appear on the label that qualifies the producer. These statements are "Distilled by" and "Bottled by", or the combination "Distilled and bottled by". These terms are followed by the name of the DSP as stated on it's Basic Permit, and the city and state where the DSP is located. I'd have to look again at the CFRs, but I don't think there is a "Produced by". There's nothing in the labeling CFRs that say you can't add other information, nor do they restrict the proximity of that auxiliary information to the required phrase(s). So it may well be that Diageo is simply bottling something made by someone else. And it could be that someone in marketing simply put the "copper pot still" stuff on the label regardless of whether the product was actually made that way. Though it seems to me that they'd run the risk of someone complaining (perhaps to TTB about it).

For the standard whiskies, there is no need for a formula, nor for a statement from the DSP that the whiskey was aged in oak. They don't ask for a picture of the whiskey itself, just the label(s). So a lot is left on the producer to know what it is that they are making. Any DSP (regardless of size) that puts "rye whiskey" as in Chuck's example, and DOES NOT put that whiskey in a new charred oak barrel for a few seconds or more risks being fined by TTB or having their product pulled from the market. If they are aging the whiskey in used cooperage, there is a specific class and type for that: whiskey distilled from rye mash. On distillation proof, again not something TTB asks for on the COLA. But it is information you must record on your production gauge. Again, if you are ever audited and TTB picks up on this, the DSP in question could be fined, as well as have their product pulled from the market.

Seems that maybe some of the vodka is produced in Lawrenceburg, but maybe not all. For the Moon Mountain Wild Raspberry flavored vodka (COLA here), two plants are listed: one in Plainfield, IL, the other in Norwalk, CT. And the label states it is produced and bottled in Norwalk, CT and made with organic vodka and contains elderberry extract. Also, only 35% ABV. There's another COLA where the Moon Mountain Wild Raspberry flavored vodka is made in Lawrenceburg, IN. What's being done I suspect is that the vodka is being made at Diageo's Midwestern production plants. The labels say 100% Grain Neutral Spirits. Then some is transported to Norwalk where it's redistilled in a copper pot still with flavorings/juice to add fruit flavor. Additional flavorings could maybe be added post distillation. Pot stills may be present at the Lawrenceburg plant as well since some product is totally made there. The citrus products are similar in that they can be produced at either set of plants. It's certainly a better way to make a flavored vodka than simply buying GNS and adding flavorings from the chemical industry (though they may do a little bit of that too). But the consumer is paying for 65% water, regardless.

Their vodka also just got Gold Award from NYISC. :thumbsup:

Well if the still is copper, and the bottom part where you put the mash/fermented wash is a pot (it holds liquid doesn't it?) that makes it "copper pot still". Doesn't matter that there's a 32 or 50 plate column on top of it or that it's run continuously. Stretching the truth to the point of nonsensical gibberish is what it's all about. Oh, and taking the customers' money. It's all a big shell game to obscure who really made and is marketing the product. If all of Diageo's products had to have the words Diageo in big letters on the front of the bottle, citizens might really see how many products are made by the same company, and may very likely be the same products sold under different brand names. All to take up shelf space and control the market.

There's definitely interest in locally made products. Whether people are able to afford them given our costs and overhead compared to the majors is another matter. Definitely make up little shelf tags that say "Locally Made". Advertise locally made. Advertise Made in Our State. Otherwise, you're just another bottle on the shelf.

Thanks for the info Todd. I wasn't a producer when absinthe's status was clarified but remember that it seemed like a lot of COLAs were submitted but not much being approved. I think TTB was waiting for the mass hallucinations and decadence. When that didn't happen, then they could lighten up.

Again, how local is local and how big is the local market? For me, NY is my local market. They buy most of what I make, and by that I mean that some of their customers are out of state or they sell online to out of state customers. So in some sense 100% of my sales are "local". If by local I mean the 3 or 4 stores in the Western Catskills that carry my products, now we're talking a much smaller number. So of it may depend on your product(s). Common products such as whiskey, gin etc may well be all consumed fairly locally. If you make a unique liqueur, you might need a broader sales area (regionally). We can't answer these questions for you, and yes, there's quite a bit of uncertainty. But that's the nature of the business.

Now this is interesting. My limited experience says that TTB seems to be a little flexible in their interpretation of the SOI so long as the identify of the spirit isn't compromised. In the old days, no one (a distiller) would want to name their spirit generic Whiskey when they could call it by a more specific name, e.g. Rye whiskey, if that was appropriate. According to 27 CFR 5.C §5.22 to be identified as whiskey it has to touch oak. But there's a number of so-called white whiskies now on the market and I feel confident that these have never seen oak in their short life between the still head and the bottle. I have an approved formula that specifically says it's class an type is "Whiskey" and it'll be stored in stainless steel containers. Todd, I don't know how I did it, but I listed the seven herbs used in my absinthe right on the front of the bottle. There wasn't a problem with that. But I did have to battle (well educate really) AFLD over whether that should be labelled artificially colored. I'm sure you have really good reasons for your whiskey identity Todd, but by simply stating the whiskey is anywhere from 6 months to 4 years less one day old, the citizen purchasing your product won't know from one time to another what they're getting, except they know it's "young" relative to the more aged products from the large producers. I hope that works for you, though maybe I misunderstand what you're doing.

Sure, if you want to be like the big producers and have a batch version of a continuous still, then go ahead. If the argument is about cost or efficiency, then the big producers will always win out. And your product will be more expensive and it will be very difficult to make it better than theirs. So why would Joe and Jane Doe buy your product? If you want to hew to pre-Civil War (early Post Civil War) American whiskey making tradition, then a pot still is the way to go. And your whiskey will be different because it helps produce different flavors. Unfortunately, the aforementioned Joe and Jane haven't had this kind of whiskey in almost a hundred years. So there's an "oiliness" to the new make spirit that doesn't seem to be in column still whiskey. That's an opinion, not necessarily a fact. I'm not anywhere near experienced as Ralph, Todd, Robert and all you others who've been in this business for years. So I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But I have a pot still. Plain Jane pot still with no plates or dephlegmator. And I like it.

Columbia. (Check their web site for dealers near you.)

I want to thank everyone who attended, it was a pleasure to have you here at my distillery, and I think we covered a lot of info and practices. And had a lot of fun in the process too. Looking forward to seeing the great products from your distilleries, and some new craft distillers! Woo-hoo! More good likker for us!

I use SS barrels for some of my spirits, and I use a small hand pump to pump into 25 liter demijohns, and then schlep them down the stairs into the bottling tank (weighing each DJ in the process, then subtracting it's tare). This has worked for my very small scale so far. (My tanks only have a 2" triclamp fitting at the top. So no barrel dumping valve on the side ) This method doesn't work as well for pumping low wines into the still; it just takes too long . So I got a little pump from St Pats on DD's recommendation and GW Kent has straight and curved barrel racking tubes with 1 1/2" triclamp fittings so you can hook them up to your little pump using sanitary fittings and hose.

Check the TTB application: not only in storage, but also production capacity as well as spirits in transit to your facility (in case you buy GNS or found whiskey and use a transfer in bond). But storage will often be most of it. Your math assumes you're barrelling that corn whiskey at proof. If you barrel at the legal maximum of 125 proof, you have to convert your wine gallons to proof gallons, i.e., multiply by 1.25, so $92,812.50.