delaware_phoenix

There were supposed to be instructions with my still?!? I think people are a little surprised when I tell them I'm also the janitor, delivery gal, etc. I agree with Chuck, this is still the very beginning.

I think it's great what they've done and it shows the kind of persistence that sometimes is necessary in this business, even if that business is a sideline. While there certainly are differences between someone operating a distillery illegally for business purposes or personal purposes, the law doesn't seem to distinguish between them, regardless of whether that distillery is in a home, in a shed, or out in the woods.

Dabney, in the foreward to Mountain Spirits mentions that moonshining is defined in law as malum prohibitum which means it's considered bad because someone made it against the law. It's not available on goggle, but Three Felonies a Day is an interesting read.

While I sympathize with Ralph and agree that CNS blended whiskey isn't whiskey, TTB has already granted the COLAs. The Taft decision of 1909 originated these distinctions, and President Taft at the time wrote that mixing whiskey and rum, not matter how rectified, wasn't really whiskey. When the current SID came into being I'm not sure, I suspect after Prohibition, and maybe it was passed into law by Congress instead of being a gentleman's agreement. I doubt any of us have many customers that are out there buying Early Times (the new blended whiskey), Sunny Brook, PM Deluxe, etc. at $10 a liter. I'm sure there'll be someone that wants to make artisanal blended whiskey.

No, I don't know about plastic bartops as I don't use them. And I don't use synthetic corks so I can't comment there either. Do all of the BT bottles you buy have problems? If yes, there's a problem. But if it happens once in your lifetime, then it's not much of an issue. I use ACI Cork as some others have mentioned and I've had one bartop separate from the cork on me, and I suspect it was half my fault. And I've bought a few thousand of them, and I haven't gotten any customer complaints. In a distillery business, the best rule is to buy the best quality products you can afford. In the grand scheme of things, bartops, even good ones, are quite cheap.

Most wooden bar tops can have this problem especially if the end user moves the wooden top in an up/down or back & forth motion perpendicular to the cork. The cork isn't moving but the top is, and that's a good way to break the glue holding the two together. Not that that is what you did, but that's the most common way to break a bar top. Also, there will be some small percentage of breakage no matter what.

Congrats! Sounds like you have lots of supporters where you live, that's great news! Should be all downhill now! Good luck!

Yes Pete, traditionally most grain spirits don't use hops in the mash/wash and there are probably decent reasons for that. When I first heard about it I had the same reaction as you, but once I learned about the company and their products and the reputation they've developed, I changed my view. I haven't even had the product, but my understanding is its quite good.

Maybe you should tell the people at Charbay about that.

FB may well have generated some sales for me, especially when I'm not able to place my product in every store. But I wouldn't rely on it. One thing that is valuable is to let customers know you are a small distillery, a local business. They may not be aware that whiskey, vodka, etc. is being made right down the street from them, in their neighborhood. It may be possible for them to actually meet you. Most people will never meet the person that distills Jack Daniels or whatever it is that they drink. They don't need to know that you spilled mash on yourself, smell like low wines and whiskey, keep terrible hours. But you're a distiller, and for some reason you're now cool. While I personally abhor the marketing driven shelf talker filled with drivel, an honestly written one may well generate much more interest, and lead to a sale. Very valuable can be the "Staff Pick" with some tasting notes, and something that says they like it and think you should try it.

The way I read this is: "We have the secret to making flavorless vodka. So why don't you tell us what you do to make your vodka flavorless. Tell us your secrets because we won't tell you ours." But perhaps I'm just a cynical old person, without a happy bone in their body, so I could very well be misreading it.

It simply has to be new charred oak containers — for say more than 60 seconds — to qualify as bourbon. Likewise for rye whiskey, wheat whiskey. If stored for two years in new charred oak containers, then it becomes straight bourbon, straight rye whiskey, straight wheat whiskey as the case may be. If it is stored in used cooperage, you have to call it whiskey distilled from bourbon mash, whiskey distilled from rye mash, whiskey distilled from wheat mash as appropriate. There are a number of reasons why someone might not want or be able to use 53 gallons barrels. An empty barrel weighs a hundred pounds. If you're a wimpy weakling girl like me, that's quite a weight to manipulate. And if your storage facility has old stairs (like mine) it may be difficult to get such barrels up those stairs. And there are unexplored possibilities for reusing barrels, though the TTB regs for labeling aren't in your favor, even if the juice is good. Just some thoughts.

If this is an all rye (or rye + barley) mash why take it up to 200º F? The gelatinization temp for rye is way below that.

It's imitation whiskey. At best a kind of rum and whiskey. But it ain't whiskey.

About to send my own email on this as well. You may want to also cc: IndustryAnalyst.spirits@ttb.gov (not that they've ever responded to me, but supposedly that's what they're there for). I do believe our Discus Craft Distiller members should be up in arms over this. And I find it frustrating (at a minimum) that if you want to make a white dog whiskey using a rye or wheat or bourbon whiskey mash bill, you have to get a formula. There goes two months of your life. (I may be proven wrong on the time, but we'll see.) Thanks for bringing this to our attention Ralph. Here's my email To Whom It May Concern At the Alcohol Formula and Labeling Division: I have just been made aware of BEAM’s three (3) COLA applications for so-called “whiskey” made with cane neutral spirits. The application numbers for these COLA applications are: EIGHT STAR - 10208001000309 SUNNY BROOK - 10202001000022 PM DELUXE - 10202001000039 I present my comments for consideration when reviewing these applications: The CFR defines “whiskey” as “the distilled spirit of a fermented mash of grain”. Even though the definition of blended whiskey/"whiskey, a blend" allows "neutral spirits" until now, no one would consider using anything but grain neutral spirits. However, given the corrupt deal the US Congress has given Diageo courtesy of the US Virgin Islands and the American taxpayer, the use of CANE neutral spirits has become possible (since the US taxpayer will be paying Diageo to make it). Even without this, the use of cane neutral spirits is counter to the identity of WHISKEY as it has been produced in America since before the revolution. These products are IMITATION WHISKEY, and should be labeled appropriately so the citizenry is not misled by false claims regarding the authenticity of a whiskey product. It is the responsibility of TTB to defend the standards of identity from corruption, wherever it may originate. Otherwise we might as well return to the days before the Pure Food & Drug Act of 1906, before the Bottled-in-Bond Act of 1897, before the Taft Decision of 1909 and various post-Prohibition acts meant to specify and delineate the different spirits. Thank you for your consideration in this matter. Sincerely yours, Cheryl Lins, Proprietor Delaware Phoenix Distillery DSP-NY-15019

When I first looked at synthetic vs natural cork, I noticed that the former often wasn't rated for higher proof spirits. I forget the exact numbers, and it may well vary by manufacturer, but something to get confirmation on. And by that I mean more than the sales rep saying it's OK.

Yes, my boiler works in a similar manner. The boiler gets to steam pressure of 10 psi, and I think when it gets to 7 it kicks on and takes it back up to 10. I think the whole process from the moment the fan turns on until the pressure goes from 7 to 10 is maybe 90 seconds total. I'd have to check tomorrow to see. But I never have problems with what's happening at the boiler effect my flow rate. The steam at the still has the emergency blow off valve set at 0.6 bar (8.7 psi), and actual operating pressure in the steam jacket is closer to 1.5 psi. So even if the boiler was only at 5 psi, I would have lots of available steam. I'm surprised that you don't have a gate valve at the boiler. When I first started running, I had the gate valve open further, and I thought it used a lot more gas to create the steam which was then just cycling through the system doing no useful work, so that's why I closed my gate valve down so much. Now the boiler uses just a therm per hour. So in this area, about $1/hour. Without a gate valve, it seems that the steam will go straight into the system, where it may not be needed at all by the still. If it's not needed, it'll go to your condensate return tank, and eventually back to the boiler. All for naught. I'm not a steam engineer, so sorry I'm not being very helpful! Hope changing a setting at the boiler is all it is.

For oil, might be best to use an industrial silicone (I think that's what they are) oil. Non-flammable at the temperatures you're working at, and last a very long time. Vendome has a small 30 gallon oil based still. If using a food grade oil, maybe the addition of a small biodiesel plant might help with disposing the used oil.

Operating pressure set on the controls on my boiler are 7 psi. The limit is set to 11 psi. The pressure in the steam jacket of the still is 0.1 bar (so maybe 1.5 psi). My gate valve is only open 1/7th. But there's never a hiccup in the supply of steam. I always have plenty of heat. To my limited knowledge, sounds like you're not getting enough steam moving through the system, or maybe too much. In addition to your gate valve, I presume you have another valve at the still to control the steam?

Just in case anyone is wondering, I now have a 45 gallon Carl steam jacketed pot still. And I know of at least one person that has a Kothe still that they're very happy with. So there's more than one way to make spirits.

Thanks for the bump. I got the commercial steam boiler, Columbia, 6 bhp. While a home heating steam system may have nominally the same BTU's the commercial equipment is better made an expects continuous operation, where a home system isn't geared towards that. With a commercial boiler you can control the pressure generated (much as Robert mentions in another thread). Further, you can use the gate valve at the boiler to regulate the flow of steam to your equipment so you're only using the steam you need. I probably could have gotten by with a 4 bhp system, but am glad of the larger system. Will be able to add equipment without a boiler upgrade, if I ever get rich and famous.

And based on the reasons Robert mentions, the traditional production of cognac is direct fired and therefore, obsolete.

Delaware Phoenix Distillery Chillin' and Distillin' Craft Distilling Adventure 4 day intensive workshop November 11th through November 14th, 2010 9 a.m. until we're done with the day's work (about 6 p.m. hopefully!) at Delaware Phoenix Distillery, Walton, NY Join distiller Cheryl Lins in a hands-on workshop at a working distillery, DSP-NY-15019. Our emphasis will be on making American whiskey: rye, corn, bourbon. We'll go through the whole whiskey production process from grinding the grain, mashing, fermenting, distilling to barreling and bottling. We'll use a 50 gallon Christian Carl pot still while turning back the clock to explore mid-19th century whiskey production methods and the modern legal and business environment for operating a small distillery. Participation is limited to 15 people. Cost: $500 per person $125 non-refundable deposit ($600 after October 28, 2010) Limited to 15 people. Lunch will be provided each day. Make check or money order payable to Delaware Phoenix Distillery mail to PO Box 245, Walton, NY 13856. For more information contact the distillery, 607-865-5056, or send an email. Transportation to Walton, NY Walton is a small village of maybe 3,000 people in the western Catskills region of upstate New York. The nearest airport is an hour away, and there is no public transportation that will get you to Walton. The nearest airport is in Binghamton, about an hour away by car. Albany airport is about two hours away, and Newark airport is about 3½ hours by car. It's recommended that you fly to whichever airport you choose and then rent a car for the trip to Walton. For those driving from New York City, Walton is about 3 hours from the George Washington Bridge. Accommodations in and near Walton, NY Walton itself has a B&B and there are a couple others nearby. Most of these have just a couple or three rooms. There's a couple other places that are more like motels within short driving distances in Walton, Hamden, and Downsville. Once you've registered, I'll send you a list of places. Early November Weather in Walton, NY At this time Walton can be experiencing cold temperatures and maybe snow. Though usually not a lot. Daytime temperatures can be 40's-50's or 20's-30's, and at night the mercury can go to the 30's down into the teens. So while the distillery will be warm, the outside weather will be cold, especially overnight. Come prepared! Clothing for Distilling This is a working workshop. The intent is for the participants to get hands-on experience with mashing, fermenting and distilling, and there's a good chance you'll get messy. The distillery is not a clean room. The yeast do not care what you look like, only that you don't introduce competing bacteria into their environment. Additionally I'm trying to arrange a dinner (included in the cost of the workshop) at Fable Restaurant, East Meredith for Saturday night, it's a little far to drive by totally worth it. If you have questions, give me a call or send an email.

Thanks for your seemingly tireless efforts Ralph. While I won't be having any children in this lifetime, I think I'll have a drink of Tuthilltown's New York Whiskey in your honor.

From the way you described it, the retailer would have to get a separate tasting license for each producer/wholesaler? If so, definitely favors big chains and big wholesalers. Your Their lobbyists at work.