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Gycol cooling systems


Guest Bobcat Hill

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Guest Bobcat Hill

Is anyone using gycol? If so, how and why? We're exploring the options but most of our gathered info relates to beer and wine making.

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Hi Bobcat,

If you'd like to discuss the options I'd be happy to help. We've built quite a few glycol chiller systems for distilleries.

We use the glycol/water solution for a few different items....

#1) Mash Tun Cooling

#2) Fermentation temperature control

#3) Chill Filtering

#4) Condenser Water Cooling

#5) Room cooling (this one is sometimes overlooked, if you use a glycol/air heat exchanger you can plumb your glycol supply line to it and treat it as you would a fermentation vessel and use your chiller for air conditioning)

If you'd like to review your specific needs in more detail don't hesitate to get in touch with me directly at damonr@prorefrigeration.com also, if you have any general questions it's probably a good idea to keep it on the forum and we can get a resource going for everyone that has questions.

Glad to be of any help.

Damon.

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I think there are a couple of really good reasons to install a glycol system to control fermentation temps. One is that you need to control the fermentation temperature or it will rise throughout the fermentation, stressing the yeast and driving the production of excessive amounts of esters and fusel alcohols that will need to be cleaned up in the still. The second reason is that by controlling fermentation temperature you can standardize the fermentation, time and output, resulting in a more predictable finished product and production schedule. Without glycol your fermentation will vary throughout the year with changes in ambient air temp, or water temps if you're using street/well water to chill.

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We had been cooling our fermenters with water for the first year or so that we've been in business. When we expanding our production back in the spring, compounded by the warm water temps this summer, we were right on the limits of our water usage per day. Our PSD regulates the amount of water we can put into the sewer every day so we had an issue. Our first thought was to drill a well and to use that consistent ground water temperature as the cooling source. However, after talking to some folks, we decided the chiller route was the best option.

We bought our chiller from G&D chiller and they helped size our system. We have (4) 800 gallon fermenters and a heat exchanger for our mash tank on a 7 ton unit. We also bought their Ranco controllers and solenoid valves. It's been running for about 3 weeks now and I can't tell you how nice it is that my fermenters are regulating themselves versus me being here to open water valves at midnight. I'm also fermenting at lower temps than was possible from our ground water. It's a big investment, but early signs are that it's great.

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Is anyone using gycol? If so, how and why? We're exploring the options but most of our gathered info relates to beer and wine making.

Hello Bobcat,

We use glycol as well. a small heat exchanger on our cold liqiour tank chills our cooling water, that is recycled into our recovery tank and is then used to mash in the next batch as well as for cleaning. Our fermenters are also also glycol jacketed.

As stated earlier, fermentation control is a lovely thing. I know a lot of distilleries just allow them to free rise, I even know a group that adds a heater.

I have a brewing background and I just prefer more control and think there are more options to explore as far as what i can do with my fermentations. I think The thought of using it as A/C is a great idea.

Good Luck!

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I think the glycol/water solution in these systems is similar the the antifreeze in a car radiator.

Is this correct?

If so, why use glycol instead of just rust-inhibitor in the water?

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@PeteB The glycol is similar to that found in a car although it is generally something that is approved for potable water systems like the red RV antifreeze they use for winterizing. The reason they use the glycol over water is that it can be chilled below the freezing point of water to more effectively/efficiently remove heat from the fermentation vessel or anything else that needs to be cooled.

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Thanks Sage, Just after I posted that question I realised the glycol at the heat pump would probably go below freezing point of water, and as you have said, the colder the circulating liquid, the better the heat extraction.

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hi Damon, I'd like to hear more about your systems for condenser water cooling. Can you give a ballpark range for a system? For discussion, let's say a 150 gallon still, with a reserve water tank of 50 gallons used for cooling the condenser.

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I enjoy haveing subjects pop up occasionally, with new info, and we do all grow at different rates, but have you searched other threads in this forum on this subject. It will be healthier. Ie: for 150 gallon still you may use up to 300 gallons on your condensor. 50 gallons recycled will not do it as you may spend more energy chilling to a consistant start temp..... well, it is all explained in previous threads.

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Actually, Bob, I have read pretty much every thread on this site. There are a couple that discuss this:

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1141&view=&hl=+glycol%20+condenser&fromsearch=1 and

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=848&view=&hl=+condenser%20+size&fromsearch=1

In that second thread, "JimmyCrackCorn" mentions using less than 50 gallons for a 140 gallon still:

"I added 900 feet of pex tubing into my new concrete foundation. I have 25 gallons of water in a 55 gallon drum plus the water in my "shotgun" style condenser and however many gallons are in the 900 feet of 1/2 tubing. I use a sump pump to recirculate the water through the system. I can distill every day of the week with my 140 gallon pot still and never have any issues with heat building up. The ground does a wonderful job of absorbing the heat."

900 feet of 1/2" Pex hold about 7.6 gallons; while he doesn't mention his condenser size, I suspect it doesn't hold much more than 10 gallons; add that to the 7.6 gallons and the 25 gallons in the drum and that's 42.6 gallons. Of course, he's not doing glycol cooling, but the point remains that it's less than 50 gallons recycled.

Now if Damon or anyone else has an actual answer on the equipment cost for cooling condenser water, that would be great.

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Jedd, I respect that you have done the research. Many do not. I also respect Jimmy C.C. The big concern for me is that we understand, be it 50 gallons or 500 gallons reserve, maintaining a constant temperature of the condenser coolant to be introduced to the condensor is the goal. Easier to do with a larger volume. Less volume, less control, and faster running of coolant through the condensor, less pickup of heat, more chilling, more energy $. But bottom line, we use what we have available. It remains for us that we do not chill but recycle the heat to other parts of our operation. I also do look forward to reading Damon or others answer to your original request.

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I agree that it's better to have a bigger reserve. My interest is in establishing a baseline on the price, to consider cooling condenser water vs. constant flow from the water line. Cost of water vs. cost of cooling it. I think the idea of recycling the water for other use (eg, mashing) is great, but not part of our overall plan at present.

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  • 4 months later...

Hello Everyone,

Sincerest apologies for not responding months sooner, I’ve just learned the tracking settings for the forum need to be reset manually.

Jedd,

To properly size the cooling requirements for the condenser I’d need the following information:

Inlet Water Temperature

Outlet Water Temperature

GPM Flow Rate of the condenser water

I can give you a size range of the chiller system that is required –

For discussion purposes:

If you’re condenser will be using 20 gallons per minute of water with an inlet temperature of 70⁰F and an outlet temperature of 130⁰F , a chiller system with a cooling capacity of at least 2,200,000 BTU’s per hour is required. A chiller system in this size range will easily surpass six figures in cost.

There are a few ways to help lower the cost of the needed glycol cooling system:

  1. Use an ambient fluid cooler

    1. This is a copper coil with aluminum fin for added surface area, the water coming out of the still (130⁰F) can pass through this coil prior to meeting the chiller system, typical coil sizing is for a 20⁰F TD (TD means the temperature difference between ambient temperature and leaving fluid temperature) So, if the ambient air temperature is 80⁰F the fluid exiting the cooler will be 100⁰F.
      1. Now the system will only require a 300,000 BTU per hour chiller system and be in a price range that will make a better return on investment when comparing the cost of using city/well water to cool the condenser to the cost of adding capacity to a glycol chiller and installing a fluid cooler.

      [*]Use a ground source cooling loop

      1. This is what Jimmy C.C. refers to.

        [*]Increasing the holding reservoir size

        1. By using a large cooling reservoir the cooling load could be applied to the reservoir overnight when the condenser isn’t being operated. This reduced the amount of BTU/HR that is required because the length of time can be stretched from 1 hour to up to 12 hours. The capacity requirement in the example above could be reduced to 183,333 BTU/HR but the size of cooling reservoir would have to be large enought to supply the flow for the entire period of running the still (20 GPM over 6 hours = 7,200 Gallon Holding Tank).

        Hopefully this helps shed some light on the topic and if anyone is still interested please respond.


    2. By using a coil of tubing buried in the ground at a predetermined depth and regulating the flow of the fluid through the coil the heat can be stripped from the water and into the surrounding ground, or into a pond that the coils are submersed into. There are extensive internet resources pertaining to this subject.

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Hi Damon, thanks for the response. A 7,200 gallon holding tank wouldn't be possible at the moment, so ours would be smaller.

Regarding your sample system, how much would the 300,000 BTU chiller cost, and how much would the ambient fluid cooler cost? How much glycol would be needed to charge the system?

If you can also indicate the electric service required and any notes on additional parts needed and installation, that would be great.

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  • 1 month later...

The above discussion includes a lot of possibly cheaper options that are not GLYCOL with energy consuming heat pumps

here is one more option if you have not already read it.

http://adiforums.com...?showtopic=2265

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  • 7 months later...

Using tower water is an option, but seldom works year-round in the US because the best outlet temp you can get is around 85F and here in the US the thought of that type water being used for a tower without massive treatment to satisfy the inspectors would be prohibitive.

Unless you have well water for make-up and condition it, it becomes expensive to use "open" water systems.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just have worked out a system with a fiberglass tower manufacturer for a tower mounted on rollers with or without a plate/frame exchanger- for those that want to put it away when not processing. It can be fitted with sump heaters as well- 5 thru 20 ton models.

It can be matched up to a small chiller (somewhat special in that it can tolderate higher inlet water temps) in series, using the chiller as a booster.

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