Heads volume

[rtshfd]

I have 300G of 8.5% abv grain-in rye Whiskey. Im distilling through 4 plates for a single pass. How much heads should I collect if I'm compacting/refluxing for a period of time before heads start to flow?

I know for a traditional pot still on a spirit run you're looking at about 10% of the total volume for heads. That would be about 3G for my still. The problem is I'm starting to think to myself "damn, this tastes good" around only about 1G of heads collected.

How much would refluxing for 20 mons or so compact the heads on a 4 plate Whiskey still?

[bluestar]

Go by taste. With plates, better separation might give you a shorter heads run. But with 4 plates at 8.5%, aren't you running above 160 proof?

[rtshfd]

It's pretty tight but always around 155. We are looking for a clean unaged Whiskey so hence the higher proof. Its done pretty well thus far. We use all 4 plates and control the proof with the dephlegmator setting.

[bluestar]

So another reason some take larger head cut is to allow earlier tail cut but keep proof in range.

[Roger]

Are you marketing that as a rye whiskey ? I ask because If I understand the cola / formula process correctly, you can't take any portion of your distillate above 160p and call it rye. just asking ?

[rtshfd]

I need to fix how I'm running this Whiskey. Are there people making Whiskey that are compacting heads?

[Skaalvenn]

Couldn't one compact the heads, turn off the heat and let the column cool before restarting to get a lower ABV output?

[jeffw]

My thought on the 160 proof regulation is that the average of your run should be below 160. To say the whole run should be below seems a little silly to me when you are running a pot still. I am not saying you are wrong Roger, that is just not how I interpret that definition. For the most part, you look at the volume question the TTB poses and so forth and you see they are basically thinking about a continuous still.

[rtshfd]

I have been under the same impression Jeff and now I'm worried lol. My runs average 153 proof at the end and so that means my early hearts are well over 160.

Heads cut on a pot still is usually around 85% abv from my experience so even that doesn't fit the "hearts below 160"

[glisade]

I always interpreted whiskey to be as Roger stated, i.e. can not come off the still at higher than 160 proof, not the average proof, but I just found this, bold is mine:

“Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.

WHERE "Produced at" is defined as. "As used in 5.22 and 5.52 in conjunction with specific degrees of proof to describe the standards of identity, means the composite proof of the spirits after completion of distillation and before reduction in proof."

So it sounds as if it is average proof of distillate not exceeding 160 proof.

[rtshfd]

Thank you glisade.

I got the same info from others in the industry I asked this morning. Looks like I'm in the clear. I really like our product so I'm glad I don't have to muck with it to satisfy the reg.

[bluestar]

Are you marketing that as a rye whiskey ? I ask because If I understand the cola / formula process correctly, you can't take any portion of your distillate above 160p and call it rye. just asking ?

This could become an interesting discussion. ;-)

I know that different distillers interpret it differently. We have taken it to mean that you must be below 160 throughout hearts, just like vodka should be above 190 throughout hearts. On the other hand, what you report on the monthly TTB form in the end is the average proof of what was collected. But I know that we have heard both interpretations offered from different representatives of the TTB to different distillers. I don't think the CFR actually clearly speaks to it, except for the glisade's reference. Not surprising, the majority of spirits produced in USA come from tower stills, where the proof will be constant. Anyone have another specific CFR reference or documented response from TTB that addresses the question?

[bluestar]

Yes, I think you may be correct, using our common use of composite. Although there is another older use of composite that may not mean average.

I always interpreted whiskey to be as Roger stated, i.e. can not come off the still at higher than 160 proof, not the average proof, but I just found this, bold is mine:

“Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.

WHERE "Produced at" is defined as. "As used in 5.22 and 5.52 in conjunction with specific degrees of proof to describe the standards of identity, means the composite proof of the spirits after completion of distillation and before reduction in proof."

So it sounds as if it is average proof of distillate not exceeding 160 proof.

[HamBone]

I'm guessing you are ending up with about 25 gallons finished product off the Still? I figure you'd waster about 1.5-2 gallons on a heads cut. you need to go by taste and feel but it should be close to that amount.

I also interpret the 160 proof to be the total of all your heart cuts when you are done need to be at or below 160 proof. Distilling can sometimes go up and down. It may start at 170 and go down to 90 proof before you are done with your hearts collection. It's the average at the finish that needs to be below 160 proof, anD I would speculate your 'bulk' of the hearts will come in between 140-156.

[rtshfd]

Hambone, that's pretty accurate to what I'm seeing. Thank you for the info!