Jump to content

Rye mash a gooey mess


middleofnowhere

Recommended Posts

I'm attempting to mimic the recipe found in Morrison 1999.

http://www.scocia.com/newsite/Canadian_Whiskey.pdf.pdf

Using their proportions on a drastically smaller scale.

12 lbs raw rye

1.2 lbs malted 6 row barley (for diastolic power)

6 gallons water

rested just rye for 20 minutes at 92 degrees (all temps in Fahrenheit)

raised mash to 149 degrees, added malted barley, added 3 grams Beta enzyme (SEBFlo-TL), let rest for 30 minutes (SG 1.053)

Raised to 180 degrees, let rest for 20 minutes, added another 3 grams of Beta enzyme, let cool outside over night (SG 1.0568).

It's a gooey mess. I pitched yeast but I believe it will still be a gooey mess after fermentation. I'd like to be able to separate the grain from the wash before I run. I can probably water this batch down, but that's not a long term option.

What went wrong? Temps a mistake? Not enough enzyme?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Middleofnowhere. What was your water chemistry like? (enzymes are highly dependent on specific water chemistry to convert)

Did you crack you rye? or Mill it? or ground to flour?

Typically rye is distilled on the grain as lautering or the separation of liquids from solids is not easily accomplished with rye.

All of these factors play an enormous role in your distillers beer being fermentable and easy to work with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rye IS typically a pretty gooey ordeal. I don't know how you could possibly separate or lauter rye very efficiently. Grain in and steam with a strong agitator is the way to go, in my opinion. One thing I would do to tweak your method is do your high heat first, to gelatinize (180 you said)(but rye gels a lot lower than that. Don't need to go quite that high if no corn). And then drop down to your barley temp. When you went up to 180 you denatured your enzymes from the barley. You may have gotten some additional conversion while you let it cool over night(had you not denatured them) and had you gelatinized first your enzymes would have had better access to more of your starches. Also. If your gonna pay for the Seb-flo. You should get some Seb-star too and watch your goo liquefy before your eyes. As well stated in some recent posts on enzymes, temp and ph are key to success with them, and don't exclude those thoughts from your malt use either. It's the enzymes in there you are paying for as well! Rye is gooey, but if its too gooey to work with then you still have a lot of long chain starch in there which is yield you are missing out on. Did you do an iodine test? Also-just my thoughts , not the gospel, my info comes from trial and ERROR.

  • Thumbs up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How did you mill the raw rye? I don't imagine you'll ever have much luck separating the liquid from a mash like that unless you have equipment designed for separating the liquid from a mash like that. The spec sheet for Seb-flo TL says it starts to get denatured at 65C (149F), so it's possible your heat was too high for the Seb-flo to do much. We make a 100% rye mash using Seb-flo but distill on the grain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Middleofnowhere. What was your water chemistry like? (enzymes are highly dependent on specific water chemistry to convert)

Did you crack you rye? or Mill it? or ground to flour?

Typically rye is distilled on the grain as lautering or the separation of liquids from solids is not easily accomplished with rye.

All of these factors play an enormous role in your distillers beer being fermentable and easy to work with.

This was a first round, I don't know. I can get a water report from the city.

I milled it to small parts, but it wasn't a flour. I've followed this recipe before with much luck (not a gooey mess, could separate from the grain).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main trouble makers in a rye mash are the beta-glucans, but xylans can also cause some problems. Unmalted rye has very little enzymatic activity, so I would suggest adding your malt at the start to benefit from its (hopefully) plentiful enzymes. Your starting temp seems a bit low to me. Malt xylanase and beta-glucanase have optimal temps of around 38 C (100 F) and 45 C (113 F) respectively, so you would probably be better off with an initial rest in this range, but they will denature at saccharification tems. SEBFlo-TL has an optimum range of 45-65 C (113-149 F), so will work at the initial temp as well. I have done several tests using both SEBFlo-TL and ViscoSEB (which contains xylanase in addition to other enzymes) individually and in combination, mostly on 100% malted rye mashes for fermentation and distillation off the grain in a traditional pot still.

If you intend to lauter, I strongly recommend using both, along with something to create a filter bed. It's difficult, but doable. God help you though if your mash turns to porridge in a production-scale lauter tun - you will have lots of fun shoveling it out.

If you are fermenting the grain, you should be fine with just SEBFlo-TL (3g is at the top end of the manufacturer's recommended dosage for your amount of grain, so should be fine).
I would mash in at 45 C with everything, including the enzymes. Hold it there for 30 min and gently bring it up to 64 C. Hold at 64 C for an hour for saccharification. Cool and ferment. The enzymes should continue working on residual starches and beta-glucans, but you can add more enzyme to the fermentation if you are worried about viscosity.

I agree CaptnKB about the water chem and grind. I found best results at a pH of 5.2.
As Scrounge wrote, you probably denatured all your enzyme at 180 F (82.2 C). I don't see any need to go up that high.

PM me if you need more help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's just a high temp alpha-amylase. I have the spec, but can't figure out how to attach it here. I'll pm you.

Edit: So I can't attach in the PM either... found a pdf on a retailer's site. Won't solve your beta-glucan problem, but saccharification will probably be quicker
https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seb-star is magic, I mean, alpha -amylase that rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starches and produces lower weight dextrin's. I buy it from Enzyme Innovation, but smallest order is little Jerry can. Pay attention to ph and temp for immediate high fives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seb-star is magic, I mean, alpha -amylase that rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starches and produces lower weight dextrin's. I buy it from Enzyme Innovation, but smallest order is little Jerry can. Pay attention to ph and temp for immediate high fives.

You can buy a 4oz sample here for $15, but if you contact Enzyme Innovation, they might send you a small sample if you pay shipping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...

For foaming my seibel class had Dave Pickerall suggesting vegetable oil sprayed on top of the fermenting rye. I have also heard traditionally they had lard, but silicone may also work. Fermcap?

He told a funny story about the George Washington distillery trials of traditional production methods and fermented puking up rye overnight.

Good luck, sounds like the hardest to make but the tastiest!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is an extra protein/polysaccharide in rye.....pentosan??

at any rate xylanase is an enzyme that will break down this slimy "thickener", eggwhite like slime that inhibits yeast function, pumping, heating/cooling mash.....

wkipedia:

Xylanase (EC 3.2.1.8, endo-(1->4)-beta-xylan 4-xylanohydrolase, endo-1,4-xylanase, endo-1,4-beta-xylanase, beta-1,4-xylanase, endo-1,4-beta-D-xylanase, 1,4-beta-xylan xylanohydrolase, beta-xylanase, beta-1,4-xylan xylanohydrolase, beta-D-xylanase) is the name given to a class of enzymes which degrade the linear polysaccharide beta-1,4-xylan into xylose,[1] thus breaking down hemicellulose, one of the major components of plant cell walls.

http://deerlandenzymes.com/resources/enzyme-functions/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...