Rickdiculous

I second Jedd's thoughts. Your's is a legal question and not an opinion question. Good luck, hopefully your clean 10 years will count for something and you'll be on your way. Rick

Without apology I am going to repost something I wrote the last time this came up, because I think it is still relevant: While I really find these topics to a complete waste of time and energy on everyone's part, after reading it all I have a few thoughts. It would be nice if everyone told the truth, it would be even better if most of the public even cared. Look at your liquor store, the stuff that sells the most is not what we are making. One day it may be. But simply, there is no right way, or wrong way. Most of this is just posturing and the standard human need to be better than someone else. Let's continue to complain about people doing something we don't like. If they make it big was that a slap to you? If you make it big does it show them up? I like the way Warren Buffet is a rich man. He dogs no one, drives an average american made car, lives in a modest house in a middle class neighborhood in Nebraska. The richest man in the world has absolutely no need to show anyone he is, because he knows it and doesn't waste a minute thinking about anyone else. There are too many liars/cheats/misleaders etc to waste your time on it. Make a great product however you want, Promote it the best you can, Take absolute pride in it, take the fortune that comes with grace, and the misfortune (if you are the unlucky one) with dogged determination to move on. As far as the TTB is concerned, I would guess the reason there are definitions were market and producer driven not formulated by the TTB, or any entity it was before, for their own purposes. That said, their concern is the collection of $13.50 per proof gallon. How they get it? who makes it? and who buys it? is of little concern to them. These definitions do not change the amount of ethanol in a 750ml bottle at any proof. I don't think for a second they are going to spend a minute deliberating on how to define what we do, because it is not part of their equation. It is only a part of ours and our need to be special. Quit worrying about definitions, define yourself, be bold and fortune will favor you.

I will only say this for Woody Creek, They are telling you the truth with how they run. The main owner owns a huge farming operation and they are producing the Potatoes right there and bringing them in on an as needed basis. They have a full potato processing plant in the facility. As for the room, these guys obviously have enough money to do whatever they want, up to and including the temp controlled room, and importing the same potatoes used to make Chopin Vodka and growing them in Colorado. It was impressive to say the least and daunting to anyone like me trying to start on less than 5% of what they spent. If you get a chance to see it you should go. The guys are very cool and they put a ton into building a great distillery.

My personal thoughts on this are to let your weather do the work for you. I am building a Rick House which will be insulated but with no heating or cooling for my place in Minnesota. I think this is a huge part of the local, unique character of this industry. In kentucky they are just brick and metal buildings with dirt or concrete floors. I was out at Woody Creek in Aspen with Bill at the conference at those guys have a room which is satellite linked to a weather tower in bardstown, KY (i think) which matches the humidity and temps of their Kentucky climate. I think it is a mistake to try and emulate them. Your aging may take more or less time depending on your area, but I want that to be a determining factor in my Whiskey profile. I don't want to be like the others. I would like to know what you hope to accomplish by temperature control as well? Where are you located? Is this a necessity for your climate?

Also, it would be a bit of a problem to try and get the words "Non-Distilled Product" on any label the TTB uses. They are taxing Distilled spirits. Whether we like how they bottle it or not, NGS is a distilled product.

Thanks everyone, good thoughts and things to think about. Rick

Those of you currently operating, can you lend your opinions on the advantages/disadvantages of using 6 or 12 bottle cases. Do distributors have a bias? Are smaller cases easier at the beginning for the cost of getting it on a new shelf, etc. Just looking for some opinions. thanks, Rick

Mike, Most of these guys are getting their big 53 gallon barrels here http://www.iscbarrels.com Independent Stave has a plant in Missouri where they will allow you to buy one at a time if you like. Rick

In my other life I teach glassblowing at a community college. We just installed an Atlas Copco http://www.atlascopco.com It has a max pressure of 185 psi, and we run a working line pressure of 120psi. It is regulated down in the various studios it is used in. With this one compressor we run, two sandblasters, 4 simple airlines, and four quick connect air tool lines. This baby runs constant pressure with almost everything running at once. I have never had all of them going at the same time, but I have no doubt it will run it. That said, it is an expensive unit. Ingersoll Rand makes a lot of traditional ballast air compressors which can be used to run pumps for a fraction 1/5 of the cost. Go big with one of them unless your operation is running multiple pumps all the time. I was just at Spring 44 Distilling for a Gin class at the ADI conference and they ran their agitator and pumps with one of those which I can't believe was any bigger than a 5hp. The 10 HP will only cost you $2600 where the rotary screw will be much higher. Rick

Pádriac, Try this guy. http://www.barrelbroker.com/ Hope all is well with you my friend. Rick

Sorry if that missed the point, as I was typing while you added your last comment. I hope it is still good advice for anyone else reading this.

Please consult a trademark attorney on the subject. Words can be trademarked and don't think Bear or any version of Bear Latin or otherwise is exempt from that possibility. Grand Teton is correct that it can't be trademarked for everything, but things can be trademarked in a particular category. ie, the spirits category. So you may be up against a legitimate claim. That said I would not just lay down and play dead for the Big boys. Get an attorney to review your filing and make recommendations for you, if you intend to keep the name it will be worth it. Sometimes a simple letter from a reputable attorney will be enough to let them know you are serious and will cost them money to fight you as well. I would give this advice to anyone starting in this business as it was given to me. Go to an attorney who does this. I got my lawyer from a very big player in the Craft Distilling industry, who's lawyer is in my backyard. I am paying around $1500 for them to do the appropriate searches and to do the Federal Filing. What is your name worth? I also got the recommendation to have a few possibilities so if one gets excluded you are ready. In my case, the name I want is currently held by a winery in California who is currently not using it. So my attorney is working on finding out if their lack of use is grounds to get them to release or cancel the mark and let me have it. I might have to buy it. I have 5 names I would be happy with and my attorney's search revealed two of my others are free and clear. This gives me the option of letting go of the primary one, even though we have invested a good amount of time developing ideas and imagery. Luckily my wife and I are artists as well so we aren't paying for that service. You need to know that the United States has a use requirement for trade marks. This is there to prevent squatters on names. You can file an intent to use to get your mark. However, in talking with my attorney you can only hold that for 5-6 years without producing something, with repeated filings. You also need to now that just because you get a trademark does not necessarily guarantee you will get to keep it. Because this is a "USE" based system someone who does not have a filing can fight yours if say they were producing spirits under the same name years before you. Get an Attorney

Jean, Projections are simply that, an educated guess based on what you have for equipment, capital and time. We all want to have one hundred percent sell through and that may or may not happen in your neck of the woods, depending on your cash on hand to make it, market it, and get into the hands of the consumer. That said, 900 cases sounds fairly reasonable. I am guessing these are projections which will be used to acquire financing. What you need there is a reasonable projection, (which you have) and a plan for doing the above mentioned. So if you believe you can reasonably make 900 cases, come up with a best guess plan for selling it and if you are believable, you will probably get what you are after. 900 cases is less than 25 Barrels of 2yr old Whiskey at 60 ABV. I know distilleries producing one or two barrels a week on a still the size your suggesting. So if you are just looking for a production estimate your not far off. Maybe a bit optimistic for a start up. If you are going for Gin or Vodka made from NGS you should make that easy. As for a market of 1 million, there are people pushing more than that by a long shot in markets of 50,000 or less. This greatly depends on you area, but if it is hot and you see a niche to fill, You are on the right track. Rick

Can you tell us who manufactured it?

Is anyone having trouble getting the TTB.gov site to load right now? I have tried for three days, on two different computers and it won't load. My internet works great and all other sites are fine. Does anyone know if they are down for some reason? I want to get started on my paperwork. thanks, Rick

WhiskeyBravo, Make sure you get squared away with the ABC people in Alabama first. I was working on one while my wife was in a teaching position at USA in Mobile. While they don't actively prohibit a distillery they exert exceptional control on what is done and sold in Alabama. You probably know about this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conecuh_Ridge_Whiskey, and his stuff is made in Kentucky as he had trouble getting the license as well. I wish you well my friend and I hope you find a favorable mood has developed towards your endeavor. Rick

Wanted to post this for your interest. I made these this past week and I am bringing them for the ADI scholarship auction. These are about 14" tall, blown glass pot still goblets.

Good luck with your negotiation. One thing you may want to add if it applies to you, is a desire to stay in the location long term if you are successful. Many landlords will take this as a sign of sustained income and little hassle on their part and be willing to help you out. That said if you are near a large urban center $8.73/sq ft is not a bad rate. When I was looking at places in Iowa I got pretty comparable numbers and found a willingness by most to cut the lower rent deal.

Try Negus in Madison http://www.negusboxnbag.com/ They do custom stuff and I used to use them to ship my glass artwork when I lived in Madison. They may be able to help or will point you in the right direction.

Sorry, I didn't realize this was under vodka as I saw it in the new content section. However the same thing applies. What grain or fruit do you have available to you for distilling to a GNS? What vodkas do you like and do you know what grain they are distilled from? Then go from there. The guys at Dry Fly use Wheat because it is readily available in their area and I believe it wasn't being used by a lot of people. So hopefully my comments on whiskey translated for you. Rick

Pick some percentages you like. Maybe prime numbers, or lucky ones. The range of recipes and grain amounts vary in all of this. The only things you have to have solid are the TTB requirements for the labeling of things like Bourbon (51% Corn minimum), Rye (51% Rye minimum), etc. While your percentages will effect flavor they will all make good whiskeys. If you need a jumping off point, here is what woodford publishes on their website for their Bourbon: 72% Corn 18% Rye 10% Barley Malt If you want to go with something easy 100% Corn Bourbon Whiskey 100% Rye (Could be 87% Rye, 13% Rye Malt or 73% Rye, 27% Rye Malt) While many of the people on this board think their numbers are somehow magic, they didn't go to some guru and get them. You need to think, about what you like and what you want to do and come up with a basic recipe. Do you like Bourbon, Rye, or Wheat Whiskeys? This is truly as simple as can be. What makes a great whiskey after that is how you ferment it, distill it, and age it. Good grain is good grain, it can all make good whiskey. I hope this helps. And by the way, I use prime numbers to come up with my recipes. Seriously, Two primes and one even. Rick

Nick, So the big question is, who's whiskey is that? I see the tell tale "produced and Bottled by" on the label. Denoting another distillers product?

I actually meant to make it cypress and wasn't thinking. Thanks, Rick

Anyone got a good connection for Cypress Fermenters or Large Hogs Head barrels for open fermentation? I would be interested in finding out what the costs and pros and cons of using them would be if anyone cares to share some experience. Thanks, Rick

While I really find these topics to a complete waste of time and energy on everyone's part, after reading it all I have a few thoughts. I think JohninWV tells it the way it should be. It would be nice if everyone told the truth, it would be even better if most of the public even cared. Look at your liquor store, the stuff that sells the most is not what we are making. One day it may be. But simply, there is no right way, or wrong way. Most of this is just posturing and the standard human need to be better than someone else. Let's continue to complain about people doing something we don't like. If they make it big was that a slap to you? If you make it big does it show them up? I like the way Warren Buffet is a rich man. He dogs no one, drives an average american made car, lives in a modest house in a middle class neighborhood in Nebraska. The richest man in the world has absolutely no need to show anyone he is, because he knows it and doesn't waste a minute thinking about anyone else. There are too many liars/cheats/misleaders etc to waste your time on it. Make a great product however you want, Promote it the best you can, Take absolute pride in it, take the fortune that comes with grace, and the misfortune (if you are the unlucky one) with dogged determination to move on. As far as the TTB is concerned, I would guess the reason there are definitions were market and producer driven not formulated by the TTB, or any entity it was before, for their own purposes. That said, their concern is the collection of $13.50 per proof gallon. How they get it? who makes it? and who buys it? is of little concern to them. These definitions do not change the amount of ethanol in a 750ml bottle at any proof. I don't think for a second they are going to spend a minute deliberating on how to define what we do, because it is not part of their equation. It is only a part of ours and our need to be special. Quit worrying about definitions, define yourself, be bold and fortune will favor you.