Scott @ Twenty2Vodka

ohhhhhhh, sorry for the confusion. I'm pretty sure we're members (i need to ask the wife), i'll try to get some access and post a summary. I know Bill Owens included a bunch of spreadsheets as part of his book, and would venture a guess that's probably what they are....more of a template of what things (like gauging records) should look like instead of containing tables useful for calcs or recipes....

We have transported and stored high proof spirits in plastic successfully with no loss in quality or transfer of flavors. I believe it's the ethanol that makes material selection important, and would confidently store lower proof spirits in these vessels as well. we've used both 55 gallon drums and 275 gallon totes. In fact, i have some spares of each that i'd be willing to part with at an extreme discount as they are currently just taking up space. Send me a PM if you are interested and we'll talk price and shipping and I'll send you some pictures. Thanks, -Scott

Right. I still have no idea where you are talking about. If you need help opening a spreadsheet and don't have Microsoft excel, you can use Google's free Google Docs. http://www.google.com/google-d-s/spreadsheets/ good luck. -Scott

maybe i'm out of the loop, but could you be more specific on what you are asking for?

If you would like the name of an active broker in several different states, look up Southern Wine and Spirits. When you call them, they'll give the polite "we can't dedicate time to your brand at the moment as it will distract from our current obligations", when what they mean to say is "we already make loads of money moving Absolut and Johnny Walker, why should we take any risk whatsoever on your unknown brand?" In my opinion, the only way to overcome this barrier to entry is to go out and sell the product yourself, get people drinking it, get people asking for it in bars, get stores to want to carry it because it flies off the shelf as soon as they put it up. Then, after you have done all of that upfront work, the brokers will likely contact you because there is reduced risk in representing your product. You need to establish a market for your brand, then hand it all over to the broker who will collect a commission on all that work you did upfront. In return, their accounts will open up to you, and your distribution will grow. Once you've "saturated" what they can do for you, and it's time to grow again, you will likely be approached by a bigger broker who has noticed the successful market you created in your local area (and is attracted to the commission they can collect). So far, this method has worked for us. Money doesn't talk, it screams. good luck. -Scott

In terms of functionality, you can do more "things" with a straight up website than you can with facebook. You have total access over layout, design, features, and content with a standard dot-com than you do with a facebook fan page. But Facebook offers traffic. Actual honest to goodness daily unique users who will likely find you because someone else found you through someone else they know. There have been times where i wished i could modify the standard FB Fan page layout...there are things like location information and the "info" tab that you cannot modify. With that said, the opportunity facebook offers any user without requiring a lick of HTML or PHP or other basic coding knowledge, coupled with the pure traffic, cannot be denied. I like to compare FB to a town plaza where there is unlimited elbow room for vendors to setup display of their goods, and (more importantly) where everyone is already hanging out anyway. If you set up shop outside the limits of the plaza, you may have more design-freedom, but more than likely at the expense of less visitors to your cart. In my opinion, i'd take the extra traffic in a heartbeat. I'd be interested to know more how Scott Harris of Catoctin Creek Distilling Co feels on this issue. His website http://catoctincreek.com/ is wayyy more developed than mine is, or will be, until i get to the point where i am forced to just outsource the whole deal. Also, http://www.opensourcecms.com offers a handy middle ground to get you a website with web 2.0 features without having an associates degree in programming (CMS stands for content management system). if you know basic HTML, understand the concept of JAVA, PHP, and SQL, and have ever mucked around in the back end of your website, you'll likely find a free option there that will generate a dot-com presence outside of FB with little time commitment. We use joomla for ours (http://www.twenty2vodka.com) however i have to admit i've let my dot-com presence slip recently in favor for putting some real time into growing my facebook presence. Since i started this thread in March, we've added over 1,000 fans to our FB page. -Scott

and if you don't have an accountant and lawyer yet, maybe you should start there. They are both expensive and essential. -Scott

setting up a corporation or LLC is essential to create a "wall" between your assets and the company. However, considering the relative age and lack of operating history of your corporation, many lenders will likely require you to sign a personal guarantee on any money your borrow, basically eliminating that nice corporate wall. As far as which structure, this topic has come up often, and the right answer will be a combination of many many factors specific to you. We are setup as an S-corp. This made sense for us given our goals on raising money, where we sold shares to many (19) different people across 3 states. This structure made raising money more difficult because the potential distribution of profits is mandated by the nature of the corporation, and could not legally be as "cushy" as can be made with an LLC structure. However, had we gone the LLC route, all of my shareholders would have had to be listed on my DSP license. As it stands right now, only shareholders with an interst of 10% or greater must be listed on the license which (in my opinion) made the more-difficult fund raising worth it. With an LLC, everyone is a "partner". If one of the partner's dies or want's out, your LLC is dissolved, and i would imagine it would make for a giant pain in the ass when having to modify your DSP license (maybe it's a cake walk to modify your license in that respect, i have no plans on finding out). Your best bet is to read read read about LLCs and SCorps and then bring all of that knowledge to your accountant, and then your lawyer, for their professional council on your specific matter. Then sleep on it and make a choice that is best for you. If i was to do it again, i'd go the SCorp route for sure. If you setup an SCorp for that reason alone, you are asking for failure. good luck, -Scott

at the TTB expo a couple years ago, an agent explained that losses are common and understood, so much to the point that they expect to see them if/when you are audited. For example, if you begin with 100 proof gallons and transfer to a new tank exactly 100 proof gallons, they know that you didn't properly gauge and that your other calcs are suspect.

I can't help you with those specifics, just curious on your situation. My question is what triggered this request? Zoning? General area rules that everyone must figure out? Funding source? We almost went the SBA route to secure our $$, and with it came loads of environmentally-focused paperwork that disappeared when we eliminated them (the SBA) from the equation. And it wasn't just paperwork for us, but also our bank, and 3rd party lender (a development commission up here). Also, are they just asking for the values for their information/records, or will certain thresholds put you into new (often more expensive) categories? good luck, -Scott

we received our copper barrel thief, excellent craftsmanship! Thanks Jester! -Scott

Had a visit by our insurance agent's Loss Prevention Consultant today. His visit was scheduled and legitimate. His inspection was cordial and comments were reasonable. The "recommendation" he left me with, and that will be noted in his official report, was the lack of spill containment around any vessel that holds high proof spirits. If a leak was to spring, or in his words "you are driving the forklift and you zig when you intended to zag" and the tank (of many-hundred gallons) is pierced and begins to empty, we would have a serious problem on our hands. He is right. A worst-case-scenario yes (specifically what his is paid to think of), but i would have a serious problem. Up to this point, just like with our steam header that will blister your skin if touched bare-handed, and the electrical panel that is deadly when licked, my only line of "defense" was to treat each component of this process with proper respect and to always be mindful of the risks if handled improperly. Also, from a start up budget standpoint, my current respect-based-solution happened to cost exactly the amount of money i had to spare on it. So from this point, the process is kind of gray. What was issued was a "recommendation", I will have 30 days after receiving said recommendation to "reply" with a "plan". Perhaps in a year or perhaps never, there will be a follow up inspection, however there was no specific actions I'm technically required to take as far as i can tell. I agree with the gravity of his worst case scenario, but file it with the likely hood of a dump truck crashing though my wall (which would also present me with a serious problem). My question to the field: Do you have spill containment? Did you rig it yourself? Has anyone else faced similar concerns from their insurance, code-enforcement, fire marshal, or other general bureaucratic entity paid to issue recommendations? Am i being stupid by not having spill containment? Thanks! -Scott

We chill filter through activated charcoal. The destination for vodka is pretty straight forward...characterless, so we filter and often re-filter until we get final product that we are all pleased with. We use an air powered pump (http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=806&view=&hl=air%20pump&fromsearch=1) to push our chilled vodka through an activated charcoal bed that is essentially a 6 foot tall, 18" wide brita filter. We approached our local water treatment supplier (everyone up here needs to soften their water) and he hooked us up with our filters (we have one for our water supply as well) and our RO system. If you are making vodka, these components are essential, but like Jesse mentioned they can take many different forms and can all be designed around your system and expected production. Oh, and charcoal has a life span. We're just beginning to figure out exactly how many proof gallons our current setup can take before replacing the filter medium is necessary. -Scott

The author of The Compleat Distiller, Mike McCaw is an ADI member. If you like his book, buy it. It's only $25 and he makes himself available if you ever have questions. Support the industry where you can. $25 from his website. http://www.amphora-society.com/The-Compleat-Distiller_p_0-1.html -Scott

Well, you have clearly been doing a lot of reading, and have made some good first steps. This forum is a great resource for what others have done, and answering real specific issues like when you need to make a decision on which pump to use to transfer your highproof spirits from tank A to tank B with out exploding. 27 CFR is a great resource for how you must operate in accordance with the Feds, and your state will also have some sort of set of rules. Now that you've tapped these resources and are beginning to get a grasp on the components to this machine, it's time to travel outside of the web and start talking with experts in each key industry. While i was starting up, i created something i called a "Player's Board" using two 2x3 cork boards i purchased at walmart. On the player's boards were 36 (yes, thirty-six) different players who were all either working on something for me at the time or were going to be 'activated' once another player finished their job. Players included our 3-4 equipment manufacturers, 4-5 lawyers, building contractors, government agencies, insurance/bond, banks/lenders, accountant, etc. Each had a half of sheet of paper of space on the cork board, and i noted everything everyone was working on using post-it notes...2 actually each. the top post-it note was what they were working on currently, and the bottom post-it note was their next task. i'll try to dig up a picture and post it. Start by visiting your town office, introduce yourself to the receptionist and tell them what you want to do. They will point you to the first person you need to talk to. -Scott

Hey Dusty. Just wanted to put the things from your reply into a quick list for some perspective. I have a feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the actual crap you've had to put up with from the community. 1.) It's mostly just anti alcohol and business neighbors wanting the area to stay the way it has always been. 2.) Closed mindedness. 3.) If anyone was for it they have not come forward yet. 4.) Many of the concerns are bordering on ridiculous. example what is the risk of explosion? 5.) they feel their property values will suffer. 6.) [concern with] raising kids in this area. 7.) [concern with] increased traffic 8.) [concern with] odor from fermenting process 9.) [concern with] who would be hauling our product (hence the increased traffic) 10.) [concern with] what would we be doing with waste products. 11.) How much would we be producing? 12.) Area now is zoned restricted development we would have to get rezoned as limited manufacturing. Some neighbors are worried about this. 13.) Wanting us to sign a clause saying we would not get but so big they never really said how big. Thats when they wanted to know how much we would be producing. 14.) [concern with] road name being associated with a distillery (alcohol) 15.) They have an actual protest submitted to the state!?!? If you accommodate any of these concerns at a direct cost to your vision or operation capability, you are considering going into a business limiting yourself to your neighbor's wishes. That is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. Pure and simple. It sounds like the only real thing going for you is this 60 acre plot of land. Is that land really so valuable to YOUR overall plan that you are seriously considering spending the time to address things as ridiculous as the street name, and as irrelevant (to them) as your production capacity?? Personally, #12, #13, and #15 seem like too much actual trouble than it's worth. I find now that i'm operating, i need to remind myself that "i'm a vodka company" often. I mean that in the sense that vodka is what pays the bills and the better i get at vodka, the better i get at paying bills. Distractions can lead you away from the real money maker and before you know it you have transformed into a tshirt company, or a free-tour-to-whoever-stops-by company. The list above looks to me like 15 too many distractions that a move to a new (more welcoming) location could solve in 1 swoop. Best of luck, -Scott

Make sure you have a decent grasp on the volume of cooling water you'll need to dispose of too. Every drop of ours currently goes into the drain, with no real limits on volume (so far). A water cooling tower and reclamation systems are too pricey (at least for us) to build at this stage in the game. We were going to build a new building at first with a septic system with a gallon-per-day capacity that was kissing the line of needing another level of permits and professional design. Had we gone that direction, and finally experiencing the actual manufacturing numbers, we would have needed to get permission to dump our cooling water out doors in a field drain type setup which isn't ground breaking but triggered it's own fees, permits, and government agencies to please. Not to mention, in the winter, you need to spray it into snow, else you'll just build a giant ice damn...in all not even close to worth the trouble. Also, once you are licensed to turn on the equipment and begin the recipe-discovery stage (experienced or not, you are going to go through this stage), there will likely be entire batches that are better just discarded. Make sure you have a plan for that volume too. You are going to have soooooo many other things to worry about down the road, i'd suggest making whatever moves you can now toward a sewer hookup. -Scott

And what did they say?

I second Porter's questions and comments. I'd like to also add: 1.) Ask for forgivness, not permission. Perhaps a rephrase stating "we will" instead of "we want to" would make the difference? 2.) Perspective matters. Your operation could be perceived as "Just another place where booze is dispensed", or "supporting the local library expansion via tax revenue injection". 3.) Don't be afraid to change your original grand plan. Infact, get used to it. If the town doesn't want you its their loss cause you are going to do this (and make it successful) no matter what. And if you can't say #3 with a straight face, move out of the way cause there are guys waiting their turn who can and will crush you. Good luck. -Scott

do these actually exist? I couldn't imagine the infrastructure costs or time required to distill any salable quantity.

Jester, do you have another thief for sale for $40? I'd be interested in taking it off your hands...

With those options $145 sounds like the clear winner! Has anyone dropped big bucks like this with results they swear they couldn't have gotten for less?

We use a basic compressor with the specs below: Manufacturer: Huskey 120 volt 26 gallon 6.6 SCFM @ 40psi 5.8 SCFM @ 90psi 135 max PSI the SCFM is the most important spec, i think the pump we use requires 5.5 SCFM when factoring in the head pressure of our setup. Ours does kick on and off as the tank needs to be refilled. It's loud, i can hear it from my office, and sometimes the lights dim for a half-second as the load is added to the electrical system. Bigger tanks will require fewer filling cycles, but it's something that we can put up with.

In Maine we have to pay an annual tax as a business for any personal property (purchased with after tax personal dollars that is) that we use as part of the business. If the item was purchased with business $, then it's eligible for an exemption, (and i'm expected to kiss their hand for not taxing me). Last year i owed $65 because i listed my 4 year old desk from college and a 27" CRT TV as personal items on their required annual list of my equipment. I've since corrected this, i just don't have any personal property in the building anymore. how pointless. Also, got notice in the mail that my tax refund from the state last year will be considered as taxable income for this year. We feel your pain coop.

Great question. At first Facebook was another thing i needed to have on my todo list, to make sure i "fed the beast" as best put by Scott from Catoctin Creek. However, Facebook is now integrated into my day and actually every electronic device i carry. While i spend a large portion of my day in the office, at the computer, i can contribute to FB without "switching modes" like i would with a physical tour. I can interact with FB while waiting in line at the postoffice via my phone, or while at home relaxing on the laptop. So far, facebook hasn't interrupted me requiring I perform what is in essence a "show" (not a bad thing) until the visiting party is satisfied and moves on. Facebook is still (for the very moment) free, and does only require time. Photos, exciting content, and contests are bonuses, not required. While i don't technically measure my time spent on FB like I don't technically measure my time spent in Excel or Quickbooks, i can say unequivocally that it is less than 1 total hour per day and entirely at my leisure. I do measure the success by the number of fans, our growth rate of fans, and their "interactions", all tracked and provided by FB to page admins also still for free. I've also made connections via FB that has landed me free press (radio 3x and print pieces in news papers and local magazines), event/party/and sponsorship invites, and an actual physical expansion into a supermarket chain (no joke). My fan count is something i can point a third party to as "proof of existence outside of my local bubble". With that said, if my time spent wasn't generating new fans, i'd drop it and focus on plan B. My total physical investment so far has been about $100 which is the cost of shipping shirts to winners of the FB contests we've held. But in all it seems like there are two camps of contributors. One side is people who don't offer tours, never did, no regrets. The other side offers them, loves them, and sees so much value in them that they'd continue if there was a tour-tax levied on them. This is encouraging. So to continue the conversation, were tours always a part of your business plan/model, or did you discover this un-met need in the public that has been paying off handsomely? Do tours always end in a tasting? If tastings are prohibited, would you bother with the tour? Do you sell merchandise too? And track sales tax, and all that other good stuff?? -SCott