Roger

This thread almost seems to have spun out of control . The original question was, and I paraphrase , " I want to hear how and why people have failed". Unless I am mistaken, I have not yet heard of a single micro-distillery failure. Perhaps then the better question would be: what have operating distilleries unexpectedly encountered in significant startup capital and/or operational expenses for which they had not planned, if any ? There have been some great responses to that so far, and I myself would love to hear some more. For example the issue with actual fermentation time as related to products would be very helpful for real planning. Likewise issues encountered and resolved relating to fire codes, waste water, etc... As for the 2x figure, thats pretty boiler plate in any "unknown" startup, but as the industry develops and if people continue to openly share information in a manner that does not cause them competitive harm, then numbers with or without outside consultation should become clearer, provided the startup has reasonable expectations of what they expect to produce and sell. Further the "x" factor is usually related to scale. I could see a $250,000- plan turning Into a $500,000- reality pretty easily. However a $2,000,000- plan would not scale the same to $4,000,000-. so shoestrings beware.

Wouldn't that require a really short column ?

Copper has a historical precedent that for many old brands has created a specific flavor profile that has led to success. If it worked in the past, why change it? Just make it bigger, and more of them. That's why the old brands continue use to use them.. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Copper is a natural antibacterial that worked (and still works) great if there are problems with a fermentation, and or cleanliness . Copper is almost infinitely malleable which lent it self (and still does ) to the hand of a craftsman to make shapes that create reflux with Venturi type helmets, pre deflegs, plates, packing, et. al. Copper is a good heat transfer medium that is also non corrosive under the harsh reactions of distillation. And perhaps last but not least, it looks good. But none of those issues are insurmountable by having a good mash, clean operation, proper heat and cooling control, good still and column/helmet design, with perhaps a little bit of copper to pull off excess sulfides / sulfites There are good and bad spirits made in both copper and SS stills, and having either will not limit your chance to produce either as well.

I was going through the invoices at a bar we are buying and both major distrubutors in Jefferson County tacked a $5.00 delivery charge on each delivery. That being said, the deliveries were usually for $1,000+each, so the $5.00 was a small percentage, vs what it will be for a small single source order. I did however notice that every bottle from all brands were whole liters, not .750. Has anybody received any pushback from bars for selling smaller bottles, or are you raising to 1 liter ?

One caveat to this discussion: there appears to be a difference in SS, depending on what country it comes from. I was in Canada talking to a distiller last week about his tanks that the ordered from China. He told me that he went to China and picked the supplier himself, because he wanted to guarantee the quality. In his process he was made aware that Chinese 304 is not the same as US 304. He was told this by the Chinese manufacturers, not somebody in the US trying to trash the Chinese products. The firm he ended up going with produced his tanks out of 316, because they said it was much closer to US 304. Food for thought

Thanks for all the help. Just trying to be energy conscious from the environmental side, and if it also makes sense from a production side all the better. Bottoms up

I was wondering if anyone has researched using hot water vs steam in a jacketed still designed for steam? The differences would seem to be that the water boiler would of course require a pump and would be about 20 degrees less hot, but it would allow for the integration of a facility heating system by putting a couple of closed loop radiators in-line. Pros , cons ? Thanks

Post your prices. Or should one of send an email for prices, and then post it ?

Again I think it is an admirable idea to develop some sort of protocol that can be a blueprint for safety, but it is fraught with potential liabilities. Especially because of the varieties in scope of operations, equipment differences, facility variables, personnel qualifications, storage systems and procedures, and on, and on...... That being said I do believe there should be a vapor sensor requirement and protocol for an alarm, and still shut down procedure when the alarm sounds. Regardless of any "pre-training", what happens when somebody fails to tighten down a door clamp or a valve pops off? Exactly what happens before the regulations and procedures were put in place. The vapor escapes and if not vented and of sufficient volume, a fire may well occur. If there is nobody watching the still, you have yet another disaster. How many people reading this go to a gas station, put the fuel nozzle into their gas tank, squeeze the handle full open, click the latch on the handle, then go inside the store to shop? If you do that, no amount of safety training is going to save you. If you don't do that, we can mitigate catastrophic fires in micro-distilleries. What we really need are 3 rules of thumb that everybody follows: Never leave the operating still unattended Never leave the operating still unattended Never leave the operating still unattended

Has there been any thought given to the possibility that cupolas may actually be aggravating the potential for facility fires and explosions? The idea behind the cupolas is to remove the excess heat from the facilities. What is left are actually two things 1) cooler air which is physically heavier than warm air, and 2) ethanol vapor, which is heavier than air. I was thinking about this after going over our insulation codes with our code enforcement officer and architect. They were talking about how critical the codes are now to make sure our building is properly insulated so as to avoid heat loss, while at the same time we are building in cupolas to release the heat. Aside from the relative absurdity of that, it makes me wonder if indoor facilities that are generally air tight, with a Cupola on top, may actually create a column of rising ethanol that eventually builds in concentration from the bottom up, as it and cooler air push the hotter and lighter "clean air" out through the top..

John Its great that you would volunteer your efforts to build a set or safety standards that could be used, and I certainly look forward to your suggestions. I will although throw out a cautionary warning that individuals have to be wary of suggesting things that are safe, which may end up failing, or caused a cascade effect.. It may place you or for example ADI in a position of assumed liability. Years ago people used to put marker buoys on shoals in the river where we live, as a way of warning unwary boaters of underwater hazards. And of course people would still hit the various shoals, and then sue the people who put out the bouys. Of course if the markers hadn't been there to begin with they would have hit the shoals, but there would have been no one to sue. Be careful what you wish for.

We are gearing up for a tourist location (4 month only Ny location) so we expect to concentrate our efforts on sales from our facility through our tasting room, and to local bars and restaurants. We have also come across the typical zoning ordinances that prohibit bottling plants, but have been assured by code enforcement and the municipalities attorney that as bottling of the alcoholic products we produce will be merely an ancillary function of our total operation, it is thereby permitted. I would therefor check the legality of the zoning prohibition before I would sign anything that would prevent me from selling my product at retail.

I believe I read somewhere that you can feed the stillage to either beef or dairy cattle, but if you feed it to dairy it should be no more than 15% of the animals caloric intake, but for beef it can be as high as 40%.

The idea of concentrating our efforts on products to be sold only at our "soon to be" tasting room also appeals to me, as we are locating in a tourist market. I have been asking questions of various parties on how we essentially "get around" the burdensome and time consuming issues involved in COLA by taking advantage of the Exempt status available to products not intended to be sold in international or interstate transportation. Such flexibility would allow for virtually limitless creativity and diversity in product offerings. So far I have had little success in learning how this can be done. Most producers are more interested in how to make the same thing every time, for consistent wholesale (also known as consistent lower price point) sales.

Thanks Nick

Question: do most distillers use double wall temp controlled fermenters or is it really only necessary to heat and crash chill in a mash tun to a temp to throw yeast, then xfer to single walled fermenters in a temp controlled facility ? Whiskey, brandy, cordials. Cost benefit analysis of 250 gallon double walled fermenters plus chillers, vs single walled with no chilers. Tks Roger

You can facilitate virtually any chemical change by altering process , heat, pressure, movement, adding or subtracting compounds to meet an end goal. It's called an "ends well". However any inference that this will or should be called "aged" on the label is never going to happen. Maybe a new word like "chaged" would be appropriate. I'll bet in 10 years there will be changes in the industry. But one thing is for sure, somebody making a bottle of bourbon today is going to be able to sell that bottle 10 years from now without chemical or process interference at an absolute premium to a later produced process altered state bourbon. Plus the classic product will not encounter excess capital equipment expense or process to make. Let's see: more money for the classic product, plus minimal capital expenditures to produce....... I think I'll stay with old school.

I believe you can do whatever you want, but on the label it must say what you did, I.e. aged 10 year in oak, or aged 10 minutes in a nuclear powered oak flavored centrifuge. Then let the customer decide. Sometimes there are reasons for barriers to entry

As a soon to be start up, I must say that I shudder to think that this wonderful and developing industry would even think about a scheme to essentially place a label of "quality" on a product, based on the alleged "taste and experience" of any given individual or entity. I further don't agree with the "garment" analogy. I spent 25 years in that industry and grew a start up from nothing, to an incredible size. And I never once required a specific label of anything but Made in the USA to make that happen. All It required was making products of a quality that created repeat and word of mouth customers. I can't imagine if during that time I was thwarted by some "excellence label" bought and paid for by a competitor which proported to tell a potential customer that his product was better than mine. Imagine an "Excellence label" determining your "taste". Especially considering that the day the bottle you actually buy was produced, the "master distiller par excellence" was home with the flu, and the 2nd in command of the still was stoned. Yeah, I'd spend extra for that, and disregard someone else because somebody who may or may not still work for distiller X got a gold star. The customer should determine your quality, not your experience or eduction. Any inference that an individual will stop looking for new things because they spent $30.00 on something they didn't like, is not sound business theory.

If this is still avail, email me at. Rrrii@aol.com. Tks