kckadi

I guess its finally time I invest in an air powered mixer or pump.......

Out of curiosity, when proofing how long do most of you wait for a proof to complete and stabilize at a final proof? For example I'm currently proofing down about 90 WG of 192 proof(corrected) vodka down to 80 for bottling. I typically add 90% (by weight) of the required amount of water, give a 3 or 4 minute stir and typically let it sit for day (stirring occasionally). I check proof and repeat the process until I reach my target proof. My question is how long does it really take for the water/alcohol to reach its final, stable proof? Do I need to let it sit for day(or overnight) or do I just need to let it sit for an hour or two? I've tried to find some scientific literature on it but no luck. Is the wait just related to how long the water/alcohol exothermic reaction takes to complete? The time wait is not hurting my production time but I would like to know for the future.

I've been following this thread and thought I would add my two cents (for what its worth). This whole thread reminds me of similar Thermo 101 test questions in college. I've got a BS in ME and have done my fair share of heat calculations..... The basic question is: Will a hot water (or similar liquid) system work to heat a still up to operation? My answer is yes (I've seen similar systems in operation). You could go the route of a hot water boiler or use a Baine Marie type system. But........ Will it be as 'efficient' as a steam system? For that you need to define what you consider 'efficient'. In the hot water system you are moving heat from the hot water to the still metal wall to the mash via conduction. The rate of heat transfer is many times smaller than a steam system so the warm up times are going to be much, much longer. Why is the rate of heat transfer so much slower? In this application the power of steam is in the condensation of vapor to liquid. In a change of state such as evaporation/condensation there is a tremendous heat exchange. The energy required to convert water to steam is "carried" in the steam. When the steam condenses on the still wall the same amount of energy it took to create the steam is released back into the condensing surface. This energy is measured as Enthalpy and its the same process that allows an air conditioner or heat pump to operate. Evaporation and condensation allow an ultra efficient transfer of heat from one area to another. When a liquid evaporates it removes energy(think of sweating) and when it condenses it imparts energy. In a steam boiler the evaporating water removes energy from the boiler via steam and in the still the condensing steam releases that same energy into the steam jacket wall which then transfers it by conduction to the mash. For a given mass of water the amount of btu's per square inch imparted by steam condensing at 212 degrees is a little more than 5 times what the same mass of hot water can do via conduction for the same given surface area. Its important to talk about mass and not volume. Volume is really irrelevant. Its the mass and the energy it contains that is relevant. Most energy calculations are done based on mass flow because it is a constant in the system. In my 15 psi steam still it takes about 40~45 minutes to get 250 gallons of corn mash to heads from room temp. If I was using hot water to heat my still I am guessing it would take about 5 times (over 3 hours) that to get up to temp and I think running the still would be problematic as the 'throttle' response time of heat changes would take much longer to occur. Is a hot water system more efficient from a fuel standpoint? Boiler efficiency aside and miscellaneous heat losses aside I think both systems would use roughly about the same amount of fuel to heat the mash up. Basically its the amount of btus to raise a given mass to a a given temp. For a little tutorial see http://www.wermac.org/steam/steam_part3.html Which system do I prefer? I love my steam system. I get fast heat ups, simple operation and a lot of flexibility. But I also got my steam boiler and mash kettle for free so I never had to budget for it so I can understand the budgetary desire to go with a 'hot water' solution. But given my experience I would recommend users of hot water based systems to think of steam when the budget allows. Just my opinion......

I use a slide hammer/dent puller. You screw a large wood screw into the bung and then attached the screw to the slide hammer and the bung should pop out very easily. Harbor freight, Amazon, Autozone, etc has them for under $50 or cheaper. Very easy and quick. http://www.harborfreight.com/15-piece-slide-hammer-and-puller-set-5469.html $20

In the theme of how a state can work against a distillery... http://bloomerysweetshine.com/why-we-are-closing/ and http://www.mainstdistilleries.com/bloomery-plantation-distillery-to-close/

New 2" steam rubber hose the same price per foot as New 2" black pipe per foot? 2" black sch 40 or sch 80 should be much cheaper. I've found 2" rubber is around $10/ft and 2" black is around $3/ft. IMHO use black pipe for permanent installations and only use rubber hose for excessive movement/vibration isolation and/or for a temporary installation. Rubber must/should be closely inspected every day, Steel yearly(varies state to state). I've found 2" black pipe in big box stores(Home Depot,e tc) to be usable quality but I prefer to buy all my pipe and fittings(especially pipe unions) from a dedicated supply house.

Appreciate any pics you can send. Frankevo99@aol.com

Michael, Is there a calibration adjustment for flow/level on bottle filling for the Mori?

Thanks!

I'm ready to start on my first rum development and have been reading allot of material and lurking on the various forums. A thread on this forum recommended "The Distillers Guide to Rum" which I purchased and I think is a great read on the subject. In the opening of chapter 5 "Molasses Pretreatment" it is mentioned that a 'good practice' is to partially sterilize the molasses by heating it between 158F and 185F for 30 minutes to kill vegetative spores. But the White Labs Rum trifold pdf says that heating a molasses over 140 promotes a Maillard reaction resulting in a loss of sugar(it doesn't state how much loss). Is anyone heating their molasses to sterilize it? My mash kettle can do this but I wonder if its worth it. Which is worse, spores reducing yield or reduced yield from a Maillard Reaction reducing sugar? Also for PH reduction of molasses which is better, powdered Citric Acid or Hydrochloric Acid? Thanks in advance.

Any rum coloring whether it is from Dunder/backset or commercial caramel or other coloring would still require a TTB formula approval, correct?

I don't use sugar washes for any of my products but I did do some when I was learning to run my still. You might be light on the amount of sugar. I used a recipe I got off homeDistillers.org. For a 50 gallon mash I used 45 gallons water, 100lbs sugar from Costco, 2 gallons grape juice, 6 ounces plant food, some crushed multi-vitamins and 6 ounces DADY yeast(which is way more than needed). I heated it up to about 180 to fully dissolve the sugar and pitched at around 85 degrees. It fermented like crazy for a couple of days and made the 'burniest' alcohol ever....

I bought a 1929 bottle capper on ebay for $50. It was a couple of inches too short for my bottles so I welded about 6 inches in it to make it taller. At first my corks would get stuck in the capper due to the taper in the cap 'hood'. I glued a couple of washer in it to space it out and it works fine. I clamp it to a table to keep it stable, I've capped about 3500 bottles now with it......... I think you should be able to modify most cappers to install T-Top corks

Hi Guys, If run/designed correctly you can use either sloping toward or sloping away, depending upon your pipe layout and where your regulators are(if you are using regulators at all). In my case its a very simple run back to the boiler so the condensate in the feedline will roll back into the boiler after shutdown/cooldown. In this configuration condensate in the feed line is minimized after shutdown. I get very slight hammer at start up and then none. As others have noted if you sloped toward the still you might have to put in an extra trap before the regulator or valve else you might get alot of hammer on startup. Or you could just live with the hammer as long as your opened your globe valve veryyyyy slowly. For trap size I am using an inverted bucket trap rated for 3300lb@15psi. I think I did the lbs/hr calc based on max BTU the boiler put out, not on the max lbs/hr from it. Oversized? Yes it is but I have also seen specs for a 300g kettle and the manufacturer recommended a 3000lb/hr trap. Going bigger with a trap is fine, going too small will cause an issue I found my trap new on ebay for $100 and it was piped for 1" NPT so no need for bushings or reducers. Be sure to read the manufactures trap spec correctly, its easy to misread the table for the incorrect trap orifice size and undersize the trap. For my 15hp boiler I'm using 2" black pipe for the steam feed. I currently don't have a vent/relief in mine (forgot to install one at build time) and the only issue I experience is an overfillled boiler as the resulting vacuum after shutdown pulls water from the condensate tank. To prevent this I close the condensate tank return valve installed between the boiler and the tank after i do my blowdown (I also turn off the condensate tank feed pump else it might run). Do I need to install a vacuum relief? Yes I do and I plan on it next time I do boiler maintenance. Also be very wary of the Black iron fittings you get at the big box stores, I have found them to be junk with bad castings, cross threads, etc. Especially the unions, every dam one of them leaks. Use your local plumbing supply house and spec american malleable iron fittings and machined unions. If you go cheap on this stuff you will probably spend extra time ripping it out after they leak. I tried to keep my steam setup as KISS (Keep It Simple and Stupid) as possible. Others may disagree with my setup/configuration and thats fine. My system works very well for me and I'm happy with it. Its safe, effective and I have a PE signoff on it.

Hi Mike. I have a very similar setup and I don't need a condensate pump. I have a 280 gallon 15 psi still and push up about 11ft to my ceiling via 1" black pipe and then about 40 ft along the ceiling to my condensate tank. I think the required pressure works out to 1 or 2 psi to move the condensate. Toward the end of my run I am using so little steam the gauge is hardly registering, I have an inverted bucket trap and check valve at the still. Sizing your trap is critical, too small and you will water lock very quickly. I sized my trap for a max of 3300lbs/water an hour at 15psi. Found a new one on ebay for $100. I have a little hammer at startup but its steam so its expected. I slope my steam feed TOWARD the boiler so it drains back into the boiler. Also, don't use a gate valve for steam throttling as they will prematurely wear out. A gate or ball used in a steam line should either be wide open or fully closed. For throttling you should really use a globe valve(got a 1" globe rated for steam on Amazon). I grew up in a family of steamfitter/welders/jack-of-all-trades so I had lots of family help. I also have a 350g steam kettle running at 40 psi as my mashtun and have it setup the same. I've been running about 7 months with no issues. I also have a 15psi steam tap that I use to steam flush and reactivate my granular charcoal spirit filter. Makes filter maintenance very easy and saves money on charcoal. I would suggest adding some extra T's (or replacing some 90 degree elbows with T's) to allow for future expansion and/or reconfiguration. You never now what you might need an extra steam outlet for. Also, you should check if your state or town requires a PE certified stamp on any steam drawings. Since your boiler is over 15psi its considered a high pressure system. Most states require it and most insurance require it. Hope this helps.

Oh yea, I actually called the shipping company on my second line while I had the scam on the phone and put both lines on speakerphone so they heard most of it. Supposedly they are looking into it.....

I have two (not on purpose, just worked out like that), a 2000 electric crown 'shelf picker' rated at 3500lbs for $3200 (including the charger) on craigs. Its great but you need a very flat and level floor and I can't go in my parking lot as the small roller wheels get hung up. Since I have to unload/load in my parking lot I picked up a 1978 propane hyster rated at 3200lbs off of craigs for $1300. The Crown is great in the shop as its very maneuverable. The older a lift is the harder it is to get parts. I had to rebuild a tilt cylinder in the Hyster and getting the correct seal kit was tough.

BOLO (Be On the LookOut) Just had an entertaining bunch of phone calls. Today I am scheduled to receive 4 tons of ground corn. I received a phone call right when I opened my shop today from someone claiming to be from the shipping depot processing my shipment. They said their driver "had some trouble" with his last shipment and refused to leave without being assured he would be paid. The caller said that I had to go to a local Walgreens and get a 'Walgreens gift card' for $200 and as soon as I got it to give him a call and give him the card number so he could give the driver the number to show 'good faith' he would get paid.... I knew immediately it was BS but since this was the first time I used this particular shipping company I called to make sure. It was, of course, a scam. The number was overseas, the caller had a heavy Indian accent and the background noise sounded like a call center. The disconcerting thing is that I don't think it was a coincidence. These clowns knew I was getting a shipment today. Someone on the inside of the shipping company is leaking shipping dates to the overseas scammer and/or the shipping companies network has been hacked. For kicks I quizzed the caller extensively and he had no idea of my location or what was being shipped. When I asked he made up info like "the shipping company is Atlantic shipping" and "the shipment is 6 pallets of something" and the "driver is very close to you on rt I-999". Kept calling me "buddy" and "friend" and saying "I'm only trying to help you get your shipment". Also he was calling on my shop phone and the shipping company only had my cell phone so they must of got only the shipping date and my company name so a quick google got them my shop number. They called repeatedly for over an hour. I did toy with them for awhile because I figured I might as well waste their time. I asked them all kinds of asinine questions like "How many PSI are in the tires of the trucks being used?"(he said they use 500psi in the tires) and "Are your trucks electric and/or pedal powered?" (he said yes) and "hows the weather in India?" In the end I told him he would have better luck with the Nigerian email scam. I now have the numbers blacklisted. The two numbers are 878-530-8756 and 876-446-3238 and the caller said his name was "James Baker" Someone, somewhere must fall for this so I thought I would post it.

Hi TetonVodka, It sounds like you guys have a great facility and your high kW demand boilers will 'hide' the car charger demand. I think your are right that its nothing for you to worry about, It sounds like a car charger is great investment for your place and won't really cost you much to operate. The only time you might see an additional demand charge on your bill is on a cloudy day AND your are running your 72kW boiler AND a Tesla plugs in. Probably not a likely scenario and the additional sales will most likely offset it. I think from a marketing standpoint its a win/win for most. I'm going to contact Tesla about a charger and maybe put an additional 208 plug for other elecrics/hybrids. I think its worth the extra money just from a marketing perspective, if I find its not then I'll just remove them. PV is not a good option here in New England and my building roof is the wrong orientation anyway. Cheers, kckadi

I think its a great idea also but I'm not sure everyone understands how most commercial electrical rates operate. A standard commercial rate incorporates both a kWh (consumption) and a pk kW demand charge. A residential rate is typically based only on kWh (but not always, demand is used in some locations). kWh consumption is cumulative and is relatively cheap so charging a 90kWh battery would cost $9 at 10 cents a kWh. The demand charge is a once a month peak charge typically based on the highest kW avg over a 15 minute interval. For example when I plug in my forklift charger it pulls about 5kW continuously till its done charging. My meter would record a 5kW peak avg demand. My 'demand' charge is 5kW multiplied times the kW rate. In my area the demand rate is $10/kW so my demand charge is $50. So my final bill is whatever my kWh usage is plus the calculated demand charge. If my tesla charger creates a 17kW pK demand than the demand charge is going to be 17x10 = $170 for the month which is $120 more then before. Add in the $9 kWh charge and the Tesla charge cost me $129. Now the demand charge is based on the single highest peak of the month so other Teslas charging later that month won't create additional demand charges, they will only create additional kWh charges. Someone charging at home won't see a demand charge as homes typically are kWh only. Now if a distillery is using electric elements for their still their monthly pK demand is probably at least 17kW (or much higher) so if the still is not running and the Tesla charger is plugged in the kW pk never increases and the distillery bill only reflects the kWh charge. But if the still IS running (or a forklift charger is plugged in) then plugging in a Tesla charger will be adding another 17kW on top. At my rate this would mean an extra $170 on my bill. To make matter worse some areas also have on-demand and off-demand rates that charge different rates for peaks at different times of the day. If your demand pks are too highthe utility will push you into an industrial rate structure where things get even more convoluted The electrical rates in New England are crazy high so charges like this hit me harder than most. I'm just saying make sure you understand your electrical bill and your rates and how they work before you add any type of high demand appliance. It could be a Tesla charger or a 50kW steam generator......... I still might go ahead and install a charger but I'll interlock it so my forklift charger can't operate at the same time.

I think this is a great idea but how has this impacted your electric bill? Is the distillery covering the electrical cost or does the user pay for the battery "top off". I don't think the kWh charge would be that much but what is the peak kW you are seeing when a car is plugged in? If you are running a bunch of equipment in the shop (especially if you are running an electric still) plugging in a high amp charger could drive your peak kW charge much, much higher resulting in a surprisingly large electric bill especially if it happens during 'on-peak' demand times, which is typically the hours a shop is open....

Does a TTB formula have to be submitted anytime a flavor is added to whisky? For example if I added honey or made a spiced whisky would I need to submit a formula?

Thanks for the responses. I've been pulling my CFR 27 definitions from TTB doc http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter4.pdf I'm a little confused by the corn whisky type definition as it pertains to charring Whisky produced at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood or directly from the CFR (ii) “Corn whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 125° proof in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood; and also includes mixtures of such whisky. Doesn't the last sentence preclude the use of any charring in barrel or spirals/chips? It specifically forbids any manner of charred wood treatment. Would a used charred barrel still be considered a "treatment with charred wood" or does the TTB not recognize a used charred barrel as a charred treatment? I'm not sure how long I'll be keeping it in the barrels. I was planning on just waiting and see what happens.

I was recently given a couple of freshly dumped 53 gallon 'big distiller" kentucky bourbon barrels and was thinking of putting my next still run from 100% corn mash into them. Its my first time doing this and was curious if anyone has aged in used bourbon barrels and what was their experience? How was the end product? Also I'm trying to figure out the whisky class and type. I think the above would fall under the TTB WHISKY type of "WHISKY DISTILLED FROM BOURBON MASH¹ as the TTB definition is "WHISKY DISTILLED FROM BOURBON MASH" Whisky produced in the U.S. at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn and stored in used oak containers Or if I distill at a higher proof it could be type "LIGHT WHISKY": "LIGHT WHISKY" Whisky produced in the U.S. at more than 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) [but less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof)] and stored in used or uncharred new oak containers In the light whisky definition it is not defined if a used barrel must be uncharred or charred. Since it is not defined then either one must be okay? Any feedback or thoughts?

I purchased 1.5" diameter ones on Alibaba Express for around $10 a piece. I can't find the link for them individually anymore but here is a link for a lot of 5 for $63 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Cleaning-in-Place-very-compact-static-spray-ball-SS316-cleaning-nozzles-Free-Shipping/1879353594.html. I have one installed in each of my 8 trays with individual valves on each one. I use a small transfer pump ($60) from grainger to recirculate a hot 8% citric acid solution through each tray. Cleans them up really nice. Send me a pm and I'll send you some pics if you want.