John McKee

I haven't seen these brands, but I have a question. Assuming a 10% ABV mash (resultant) and assuming you can push 4 batches through one of these tanks in a 24 hour period, you are only going to get = 75 gal * .10 ABV * 4 = 30 gallon of pure product (assuming no heads or tails cuts on a batch still). I run a 1000 gallon mash, distill to completion in 10 hours, and I still think that I'm barely large enough to compete in this rapidly expanding market. Is this mashtun for prototyping batches or production? If production I may suggest that you want to set your sights higher. Good luck. If you are attending the ADI conference in April you will have some great opportunities to see other mashtun and production options. Hopefully they can give you more to go on. Best, McKee

My bottom line point is that I see our industry potentially being forced into a QA/QC paradigm like I discussed above. Trust me all when I say that I don't wish for that to happen, but in the interests of being in front of that eventuality and having the ability to shepherd its development I suggest that we get proactive with an approach. If the FDA & IRS takes over duties for the TTB, as is suggested in the 2013 Federal Budget, one can guarantee that further scrutiny will land on our industry. If we can step up to that scrutiny and say, "Not only have we been thinking about QA/QC, but here are our suggestions for how it might work," we stand a better chance of getting the best rules possible for our industry. Let me say it again, I don't want to do this just because, I want to do it because I think its going to get forced on us anyway. Why not get ahead of that potential eventuality?

An honest first glance will need to answer the following: 1. Buy or Lease the space for your facility? 2. Annual production targets? This will greatly influence your CAPEX and OPEX numbers. 3. Distillation equipment and style? Batch distillation vs. Continuous Flow? If Whiskey and other low proof spirits the CAPEX cost for equipment will be lower than Vodka, but the OPEX for vodka is less due to not having to age whiskey (cost of carrying inventory). Larger the production targets the more expensive CAPEX for Batch vs Continuous Flow. There are a multitude of other questions, but ultimately the 3 questions above are a good start to assist with flushing out the other questions and their subsequent answers. Short answer....if you are doing this on your own without assistance in wash preparation, facilities/siting, or other factors you should look for a project budget starting at about $500,000 and then ranging up to as far as your production targets deem you'll need to spend. Good luck.

Bioviper, that exact same thinking is what killed the biodiesel industry in the early 90's. A few of us were making distilled pure methyl-ester biodiesel and some people were making methanol ridden, watery sludge and selling it as biodiesel. Those people happened to have better connections and were able to get their product into the market and create not only a massive negative backlash (that took years for the entire industry to recover from) but also did lasting damage to diesel engines all over Minnesota. The take away, is that the court of public opinion is very strong. Although the thought that the industry will weed out the bad ones over time due to inferior product is a nice panacea, the harm to the industry during that same time will also affect the good ones too.

We are opening our distillery today, after 23 months of development work and genuine effort. I too share Nick's comment, "Sure, there are people out there (both micros and macros) putting filth in a bottle and calling it premium spirit." I personally have designed, constructed, commissioned, and run distillation units all over the country, much in excess of 20 MGY throughput, and I don't yet call myself a master distiller....which I think is in part, the core essence of the issue at hand. Although ADI is a great forum and organization, and although DISCUS is a great political tool and lobbying organization, the critical missing link in this industry is a true certification process organization......someone that we all recognize to certify that a distiller or distillery really does make a true wonderful product(s). The current Status Quo allows anyone with a DSP to call themselves a Master Distiller, mainly because it doesn't have meaning standardized in the system. I know that some will answer, MSU (Kris & crew are great, but not a certification org), various distilling classes (but short and perfunctory at best), or finally a true distilling degree (most of us don't have 4 years to get a Beverage Alcohol Chemical Engineer degree). Inherently I don't think that any of those answer the question of what makes a master distiller or what makes a good product. In biodiesel, the government and industry require tests of Parts-Per-Billion in order to qualify as fuel, in beverage alcohol....all we have to do is get the customer to buy the 2nd bottle, regardless of quality, in order to presume quality and we get use non-standard statements like "Ultra Premium", "Super Premium", etc, etc, that have no relevance other than marketing because they do not appear in the Standard of Identity. Ultimately, this industry is going to get pulled (perhaps kicking and screaming) into a standards based quality assessment routine, probably ASTM, due to someone calling themselves a master distiller and putting something into a bottle that winds up hurting someone else......and then ultimately the industry. In order to stay ahead of that eventuality, we should be sitting as a team and starting to work out some standards proactively that show the industry, and most importantly the consumers, that we are serious about our craft and those that attempt to reach a set of standards can most likely be trusted to create a great product. Think of it this way...there is not a bridge you've crossed, a car you've sat in, an appliance you've used, or any number of examples of items that you use on a daily basis that were produced without a Professional Engineer's stamp affixed to the final drawing. That stamp is a certification of the quality of the work that went into what you are using. But you can drink anyone's rot-gut, even if they call it "Super-Premium" and their business card says "Master Distiller". I'll be at ADI if anyone wants to sit down over a table and hash out a few ideas.

Found this today while on the interwebs. Missing information on closed states, but a good reference for all of the other US markets. Please note this is only good as of Jan 2010. Sorry if this is a repost. http://www.taxadmin....rate/liquor.pdf and another.... http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/27339.html Best, John

I've been told that for creme products, the bottom is 12.5% ABV, which is enough alcohol to keep the dairy product from spoiling.