John McKee

Jake, You guys are going to do great. Can't wait to come over for opening night. Cheers.

I thinking more to TL5612's that this outfit claims to be making Heads & Tails cuts on a GNS, not true...we all know. If they are making gin, then of course the botanicals manipulation gives them the "Distilled by", but if they're redistilling GNS to get vodka (thereby getting to the "Distilled by" appellation) they're just making it worse. TL5612, your question regarding redistillation of GNS in Copper.......distilling in Copper doesn't make a difference...regardless of GNS or base wash. Yes, copper is required at certain points in the distillation process, but all-copper-everywhere stills are a waste of money. Period. Anyone claiming otherwise doesn't have a full understanding of distillation of ethanol.

Steve, This is a great question. When I decided to enter the field about 3 years ago, I went around looking for Continuous Stills and didn't find anything. My background was design, manufacture, and operations of continuous distillation systems (10-60 MGY) and knew from that experience that the most efficient and precise distillation regimes required continuous distillation. So, we designed and built our own continuous stills for artisan beverage alcohol, based on the fact that I couldn't find one to buy. I'll be announcing them on this forum late next week. However, in summary; Our design distills 1000g of 10% ABV wash in 12-16 hours. Single pass, no stripping run then spirit run. All heads automatically stripped. Tails less than 2% ABV Computer controlled for temperatures, levels, flows. Can simultaneously deliver a finished whiskey and vodka on the same run from the same wash. 2 skids, each 4'x4'x10'. Power requirements are 300-350K btu/hr heat input, 20A 120v service, and cooling water. Delivery 4 months from order. There are a few continuous stripping stills offered by Carl, Vendome, and others. And although the first column of my three column skid can be used as a stripping still, our system is more fully a complete distillation system. We've been running our stills for the last 10 months, so I can speak to them as functional units in a functioning distillery. Sorry for the teaser. More complete info, including specs, pictures, design, & costs will be available next week. Until then have a great New Year. Cheers.

What kind of throughput are you looking for? Most of the column stills you're referencing could support 20-50K gallons of wash a day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20836084

I agree that a safety thread would be good, but I offer a single criticism. The thread can't be a forum for suggesting things are aren't safe. Otherwise said, it shouldn't be a thread where people express their opinions about what is or is not safe. There is a lot of sharing of ideas on these forums and some of those ideas are expressed from an experiential standpoint, some are expressed from a professional knowledge standpoint, and others are expressed from a place lacking either experience or knowledge. I would find it ill advised to populate a safety thread in which suggestions and opinions that are not safe are mentioned. After all this thread is a resource for new guys as well as old hats. I would be concerned that with conflicting or differing opinions expressed in the forums, influencing proper decisions about safety for new people to the industry. So, start the thread if that's what people want. However, new guys and old hats, there are great resources for safety in our industry. Those should be exhausted before relying on experience from anyone without proper credentials in ethanol refining safety practices. Cheers.

Brandon, MG is spot on and here are a few other items to consider; You may need 140,000 btu/hr, but you need to know that steam boilers are rated at 80% of their nameplate capacity. So a 140,000 boiler will only result in 112,000 btu/hr If the boiler is using an atmospheric burner (not assisted by a fan enabled burner system) you will have additional de-rating due to altitude. For instance, we operate at ~5000ft elevation. Our atmospheric burner has an additional de-rating of 20% due to elevation. So to continue our calculation from above, if your conditions are the same, your final boiler rating will be 89,600 btu/hr. Ok...so long story short, do what MG suggested, get yourself a good boiler contractor and let her take it from there. You can then pull up and spend more time on other items. Cheers.

Cowdery, Oh......quit throwing stones. You're the bomb in so many ways and such a rabble-rouser in others. I need to get you out to Montana, throw you in a couple hot springs and snow drifts and cool down that fire you've got. Cheers.

Bannonjd, Your still type, size, config, throughput, M.O.C. (material of construction), utility, etc, etc, etc..........are all best determined by your debt service model. Figure out how much you think you can sell, at what price (+/- 20%), then work backward. That will give you ample data on a great deal of data about your operation...still size, mash/ferment volumes, bottling line needs, bond size & capacity, etc, etc, etc. I say it often in this forum. Your debt service numbers drive all of your decisions. We also offer a consulting service, if you'd like to discuss more, please feel free to PM me at anytime. Cheers.

Rick, Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered a copy. Cheers.

...but they do have outside labs that perform the testing for them, for about $50 a test. For new distillers contemplating this business, don't assume that because the TTB concentrates primarily on the "protection of revenue" that they don't follow through on the standards of identity, proofing & gauging, bond size, or auspices of their responsibilities. They do. Cheers.

Ryan, Not directly related to Vodka production, rather all alcohol, but the best I've found. "Fermented Beverage Production" 2nd Edition. http://www.amazon.com/Fermented-Beverage-Production-Second-Andrew/dp/0306477068/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355412473&sr=1-1&keywords=fermented+beverage+production Also, look for Chapter 13 from "The Alcohol Textbook". That is a specific reference to vodka and NGS production. Cheers.

Hey, 2000 sqft warehouse, 2000 sqft distillery, 2000 sqft tasting room. Cheers

Bobby, You have a few issues here, but none are insurmountable. I'd be happy to share more offline if necessary, PM me if you like. For now.... You are correct, distilleries are F1. In the International Fire Code, NFPA 400, and OSHA 29 CFR, there are specific exclusions for distilleries that change a lot of things for local fire marshals, fire suppression design people, etc. Without knowing those exclusions, those people tend to trend to what they know. Once they are made aware of those exclusions, many things may change for you. If your water pressure is too low for your system, then a booster pump is definitely required. By way of example, I didn't need a booster pump for our system....we have 55 psi pressure on a 4" municipal feed, which is more than adequate for sprinkling for 6000 sqft of distillery space. However, for the block immediately north of my facility, the water pressure is less than 25 (different municipal supply zone) and in those cases a booster supply pump is required. If your pressure isn't high enough to adequately supply your needs then you'll have to get a pump. Put in or upgrade the sprinkler system....its a no-brainer for a few reasons: Cost per sqft is about $3-4, designed and installed. Not that large an expense considering the safety factors and the overall investment you're about to put into the space as a whole. Even if you're leasing, you can probably make a deal with the property owner for a reduction in rates for a period equal to the value of your sprinkler upgrade. Insurance companies will drastically reduce your coverage rates for having a sprinkler system, sometimes resulting in a system payback of less than 2 years. All in, you're in a better place to have a proper suppression system than not. I know where you're at from an expense perspective, $'s are tight. But long term, from the value-of-money perspective, sprinklers are a sound investment. Cheers

We've laid down 4 barrels that will sit for a while. 2 for our kids 21st Birthdays and 2 for their weddings. The birthday barrels will probably still have some left, but depending on how long they wait to get married, there might not be anything left the "wedding" barrels.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/glenfiddich-janet-sheed-roberts-reserve-55-year-old-auction_n_2272581.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003 I think the telling quote is "only 15 bottles of the 1955 whiskey were made"....that's some kind of angel's share!

Roger, Best summary of the issue I've ever seen. Nicely said. Cheers.

Casey, Welcome to the last job you'll ever have. At least that's what I tell people. From your interests you look to have a nice background in distillation. Care to share more about your experience? Best

Nick, We are considering selling CF stripping stills and will probably have that as part of our product offering when we introduce the family in the New Year. It mostly depends on interest and demand. Cheers

John, Typically, one needs 22 separations steps after a stripping run to adequately rectify upto 95%. These stages can be physical trays or theoretical trays (structured packing). However, if you're not running a continuous still there is a good deal of waste left behind in the column....hold-up volume. Additionally, all separation is properly influenced via good reflux control - perhaps with more effect than column internal sizing/type....meaning that as much attention (if not more) has to be placed to proper reflux design and control than internals selection. Depending on your pot still size, you may be able to effect 95%, but I would suggest that you need at least 2 columns of the dimension you are suggesting above. However, grain-of-salt everyone. I used a reputable and well recognized distillation internals design company to fully flesh out my design. I would not suggest anyone on this forum use my advice solely to influence their design decisions. I'm just a guy like all of you....I make hooch and have a lot of fun doing it. Cheers

http://gawker.com/5965284/whisky-restores-eyesight-of-man-who-was-blinded-by-vodka Cure to methanol poisoning is ethanol ingestion. We're all life savers guys.....for more reasons that one. Cheers

Nick, Thanks for the kind words. I went offline with Kevin to try to be more helpful. He's in the middle of some upgrades and design decisions (and is running some very cool processes, some of the most high-tech I've seen in beverage alcohol) and I thought it may be more fair for him to share what he wants to about his particular design. However, that being said, we'll be sharing information on our Continuous Flow Stills that we manufacture here in Butte. 1000 gallons of wash every 10 hours, single pass, fully automated. We've been running our distillery off of the prototype for the last 10 months and we're ready to begin selling them to customers in this industry just after the New Year. Until then, perhaps Kevin may be willing to share additional info on our conversation today. Cheers and thanks again for the kind words

I can offer some better direction if you can provide more info. Until then, here are some things to consider: The mesh isn't going to work well in an 8" column. Mostly due to the strength of that type of material, it will want to crush at the bottom and cause large issues with column performance. Plates are fine, if you have solids in this area of your column. If however, this column is rectifying vodka or other spirits you should consider structured random packing. Cheaper and they have a higher degree of efficiencies. I can can probably be of more help and/or give you some better info if you wish to P.M. me. Cheers

Curtis, Thanks for the clarifications. At the volumes you're talking about, 10-20K gallons a wash per week, you're not looking at boot strap pricing for separating....its all going to be relatively expensive. Settling technologies will work, but will require still tanks and settling time larger than your largest fermenter and longer than is advised for fermentation. Centrifugation will work - but that comes fraught with all of the difficulties that anyone who has run a centrifuge understand very well. Filtering: There is a company that produces a self-cleaning filter, Fluid Engineering 723/723T/753/793 Series, that can filter solids continuously. You may want to check them out. Cooling techniques will work - using a glycol system to crash cool will help some, but if the specific gravity of your suspended solids is close to that of the mash, you're not going to do much other than settle out yeast and heavier solids. The Russel Finex was my suggested solution, prior to reading your last post. Pricing is less than $20K and they do a perfect job in situations like this. If you're really going to successfully move 10-20K gallons of wash per week, then $20K for an LSS is pretty much nil in your overall CAPEX costs to build a distillery capable of the throughput you're suggesting. Shoot....a boiler to run this operation is going to cost 6-7X the cost of the LSS. Good luck and let us know what you finally settle upon. Cheers.

Roger, A hot water boiler would work fine if you ran vacuum based distillation. If however you intend to run atmospheric distillation systems, then you need steam, electric heat, or hot oil utility to effectively run the columns. Cheers.