John McKee

SOLD. Thanks for looking.

Matt, Great news. We had a meeting with Sen. Tester and will be having a meeting with Sen. Baucus this week regarding the timing of both DSP licenses and more importantly COLA and Label approvals. I'm sure our conversations didn't influence the timing of this DSP, but as a note to all, your legislators are willing to make calls to TTB to assist in getting things done....mainly because that doesn't require legislation, which as we all know is stuck in limbo in our current legislative climate. The more we let them know that the TTB, especially the licensing and label approval groups are swamped, they can do things to help. Cheers.

The still is not a pressure vessel and it might help to point this out. This misinformation needs to stop on this forum. All stills, regardless of design, type, heating source, etc are to be considered pressure vessels and must have both pressure and vacuum break relief valves. Period. Please revise your statements and thinking accordingly. Running a still without the proper safety equipment and basic operational & design knowledge is a scary situation at best, suggesting that stills are not to be treated as pressure vessels is setting up someone to die. Cheers,

Excellent response, thanks. Good luck.

Blackheart, Can you please provide your credentials and experience, other than opening your facility less than 16 months ago, that qualify you for teaching such a class? Thanks.

Bobby, I'm pretty sure you're fine in all you've decided to do (with the stipulation that you'll package and sell via the laws of distribution in your state). However there are a few items about ownership that I don't think are clear here: Until packaged and sold, the barrels and the contents of the barrels are owned by your DSP and no one else. For instance, if you go bankrupt, the bank and court will seize those barrels and sell them as an asset to recoup losses from the bankruptcy. Why is that? Look at it another way. The product is under your license, under your bond, under your insurance, etc, etc, etc. Even if your customer came to you and said they wanted to TiB to another facility, you can say you've never heard of them and hang up the phone. They have no recourse, of any kind, because they cannot prove ownership of the product to the TTB, they have no records with the TTB, nothing. They can't make claim to the hooch. Now.....counterpoint in a strange way. JohninWV is 100% correct, about booze being owned by others, but in the final analysis, they can't make claim to it unless they have a DSP or Federal Basic Permit. Without those, they are like every other person in America and limited to owning product that they are able to buy via the 7 approved package sizes (which Bobbyb, sounds like what you're doing) . Their claim to ownership is strictly at the behest of the person/organization who has the booze under their bond. JohninWV, to continue, if MGP/LDI files Chapter 7 or 11 tomorrow, all of the booze under their bond becomes the property of the bankruptcy unless it has been paid for in full including storage fees for at least 6 months up front. And even then, I believe that the bankruptcy court will only release the value of the barrel at purchase and only then at a heavy discount once the liquidation process is complete. Hopefully not something we'll have to see, but I suspect that this issue will come up in the next few years and the courts will have to set a precedent...unless someone knows of a precedent already on the books? Cheers, John

Las Vegas distillery already does this, its called Rumskey. Its basically a speciality distilled spirit in which they use both grain and molasses. Been done, COLA approved. If you want all the answers, call George down there. He's a great guy, very engaging. Cheers, John

He comes up in conversations on this forum quite often. Figured some of you might like to see how much he still likes what he does. I hope we're all as successful and happy about where we came from and where we're going. Cheers.

Hey all, This discussion will always turn around in circles on the definition of craft. TTB defines what a DSP can or can't do, but they don't define based upon size, craft vs macro, etc. In some ways, this is analogous to many of the posts I've written about certifying "Master Distillers" in our industry. I've said it before, I have designed, built, commissioned and personally distilled greater than 1 million gallons of material in the last 8 years....however I don't call myself a "Master Distiller". Yet I attend ADI and see people who have yet to get their DSP's and haven't distilled a drop other than at 4 day workshops, handing out business cards that say "Master Distiller". Until ADI & ACDA &, &, &,..... (basically the industry as a whole) can come to some sort of agreement on what terms and certifications mean, this will continue to be an issue. Think of it this way. Joe Blow "Master Distiller", opens a new distillery after a 4 day workshop, makes crap (because it will be with that level of knowledge and experience), puts a "Craft Distilled Spirits" sticker on the bottle and sells it to the unwary customer. Then by association, the customer will come to think that if this is what "Master Distillers" and "Craft Distilled Spirits" gets you, then by default anyone else with the same monikers will probably have the same crap in their bottle. Ultimately, defining craft, Master Distiller, and other terms isn't going to get us too far. The long term solution will probably be something like a certifying body (think Professional Engineer certifications, ISO-9000, ASTM) that can assess the knowledge, education, and experience of the distiller and certifies that said person or said Distillery is making something that the consumer can trust. Until then, my opinion is the following will happen. ADI has led to ACDA. Someone isn't going to like something about ACDA and they're going to start their own group with its own goals and certifications. Someone isn't going to like that and they're going to start something else....ad infinitum. The only way to stop the "I'm taking my toys and going to play somewhere else" is to follow the standards set in damn near all other manufacturing industries and set a certification program and live by it. I know that many of you have heard me bang this drum before and after the few years in this industry, my opinion has only strengthened on this issue. Define all you want, but until there is a certifying body with a defined group of standards.....we're only going to wind up with bottles covered in stickers from every group one can find. Cheers.

Hey all, I have the same tanks and they're great. Scott's price is spot on. If you have tight quarters or the need for a more dynamic layout in your space, these tanks are great. Plus, they're blue, which means that my kids crack up everytime I call them "smurf-cookers" Best, John

Good morning, The scale of your distillery and the power of your marketing and branding will be the only way to answer your question. We've all seen well funded distilleries make no money because they had crappy product or a poor marketing and sales plan. We've all seen shoe string operations make "angel tears" with a good brand and story and make money right out the door. I know many people are cagey about their performance in this industry. In 16 months we've gone from 1.5 FTE to 21 employees with sales 5-7X of our Pro Forma and well into the black financially. Long story short, people are making a go at it in this industry and people are failing hard. Your business and product acumen will determine your path. Cheers, John

Good morning, Regards your questions about Spirit run and heads, a proper continuous still can: Fractionate and strip the heads components while under operation. Allow congeners and tails products to the spirit plate in the ratios that you deem appropriate for your specific product lines. There are no "Stripping" and then "Spirit" runs. All distillation is handled in a single pass. Cheers McKee

All, Although less than eloquent, Roger has made a point that is this industry's next big hurdle....defining itself. Schisms inside the industry, those defined by what craft, micro, and other terms mean is what we all have to come to agreement upon. Roger, I assume you don't grow or malt your own grain and feedstocks. If so, does that make you less craft than those who do? If so, how much? I think that Jim is offering something that your Holsteins do not. When you've actually run them for a while, rejoin the discussion and offer some experience based discussion points. Until then, help us all work on how we define ourselves as an industry. I personally have distilled over 1,000,000 gallons, I don't call myself a Master Distiller. Do you? Do others? What makes a Master Distiller? What makes Craft? What makes Grain to Bottle? What makes an NDP? What makes a......... Once we have some better ways to define our industry, we'll all be in a better place to offer fruitful suggestions. Cheers, McKee

Brandon, We use Rite Boilers in our operation. Good equipment, we're happy it. Cheers, John

Jim, Congrats on entering the still fabrication side of things. Continuous stills are the way to go and its good to see another manufacturer come on board with their offerings. We too, use, sell, and manufacture continuous full production stills and are glad you've joined in that effort. Best of luck. Cheers, John

Race Labeler, Model RLTC-SP. We also use a square bottle and we've run 50,000 across this labeler in the last 16 months with no issues. Cheers, John

I'd try to stay away from glass carboys. Used steel soda kegs are a better idea from a safety perspective. Slippery floors and glass carboys don't go together well. Our lead distiller had an issue at his previous company with a glass carboy that led to 30+ stitches. Cheers. John

As always there are many and varied opinions about the type of stills used for various applications in beverage alcohol. However, there are some facts: Makers Mark is made on column stills. Buffalo Trace and all of their sub-brands are made on column stills. Heaven Hill and all of their sub-brands are made on column stills. Woodford Reserve; 1 barrel of every 8 muddled for a final batch is made in a pot still. All of the 7 other barrels are made in column stills over at Brown Foreman. LDI is made on column stills. 70%+ of all Irish whiskey is made on column stills. 60%+ of all Scotch whiskey is made on column stills. The only industries that typically use pot stills are microdistilleries, batch pharmaceuticals, and college undergrad labs. Cheers. McKee

I'll post what I can sometime in the next few days. Sorry for the delay. Cheers, John

Chris, The report is free to all members of the Distilled Spirits Council of the U.S. http://www.discus.org/about/CraftDistillerAdvisory_Benefits/ Cheers, John

Jason, DISCUS "Recommended Fire Protection Practices for Distilled Spirits Beverage Facilities" has a good deal of information about barrel warehouse practices. However, some info of note: If palletized warehousing is in your plan in any way, you'll need to give me a call regarding the sprinkler issues. FM Global has pulled their underwriting for palletized warehouses. Drainage, in the event of catastrophic leakage is required at 125% storage volume of the total volume of barrels contents in the warehouse. Ventilation is required at a rate of at least 1 cfm/ft^2 of solid floor area. see NFPA 91, Exhaust Systems for Air Conveying of Vapors, Gases, .... and NFPA 90A. Electrical should be installed per NEC Class 1 Div 2. Establish a non-flammable area around the warehouse of pea gravel, probably at least 20'. Beam and others are now building warehouses with at least 100-200 ft distance between the warehouse and any other building. Their preferred standard is actually 100 yards. If you've ever been to KBD, the space there between rick houses is about spot on. Good luck. Please do share pictures when you're done. Best, John

Good morning, Sorry for being late to this discussion. I'll start another thread today with some other information, however, here is the input from NEC via DISCUS "Recommended Protection Practices for Distilled Spirits Beverage Facilities". Long and short of it, your calculations and your approach to air exchange are exactly correct. "In barrel warehouses, either racked or palletized, electrical equipment approved for use in a Class 1, Division 2 hazardous locations should be used throughout. Exceptions: Ordinary electrics, such as lighting fixtures, may be used when: a.) attached to the underside of the roof ----- b.) mounted beneath liquid tight floors while maintaining a minimum of 5' clearance from the barrels." With regard air exchanges, our industry is bound to an area classification for distillery, bottling lines, and warehouse of a minimum of 5 air exchanges per hour. Best, John

Update on this incident: http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121219/BIZ/212190307

Carl, The marketing plan is "to sell the 2nd bottle". Selling the first bottle is simple, selling the second depends on quality and message. It was at the Portland ADI event, forget which session, the panelist Max Watman said to quit sending him crap. He didn't mean hooch, he meant plastic monkeys, feathered boas, and other marketing material that didn't really speak to the core message of the brand. We're very proud of our brand and marketing strategy and insofar as it has been moderately successful, we believe that is due to the authenticity of our message. We co-branded our marketing strategy with the history of our town and by result became a part of its message as well. I think that marketing hooch is tough and there is no one answer that works, but the customer can smell crap, so if the message isn't authentic, just go home. Cheers.

It depends on the legal circumstances of your tasting room regulations (different by state and locality) but for us, we feel the expenses of running our tasting room are justified in the brand recognition and limited offsite sales that we're allowed. MT rules: 2oz sampled on premise and upto 1.75L off premise sales per person, per day. Cheers.