John McKee

Justin Aden from Michigan State gave a presentation at the ADI conference last year that suggested a sizable increase in yield due to using ground flour. The idea was that a greater cracking of the grain allowed a greater access to the starches --> higher yield in alcohol.

We've been very happy with Race Labeling. We have a square bottle, so a roll-on technique wasn't going to work. Their machine has a jig that transforms the roll-on to allow for a square bottle. We've labeled over 30,000 bottles in the last 6 months with it and it's holding up just fine, with no issues. I've put Marc's contact info below. Good luck. Marc Moore Race Labeling Concepts www.racelabel.com (800) 653-9357

With Dave, I humbly call myself a doofus for not thinking of the international implications. My bad. Good point Dave.

@Jlevac, What you are suggesting is beyond illegal. I would further suggest not posting your intentions of running a still without both federal and state licenses on this board again anytime soon. Be advised, its not a slap on the wrist. What you are suggesting is a federal crime. Good luck.

Panoscape....I tend to agree with your model if one can't afford a still. Find a way to offer a product without the CAPEX investment, see if you can build a brand that sells, then finance the CAPEX.

Congratulations on your new equipment purchase, its exciting to get started. Noting the remainder of your post, please use caution on your business model. If you don't have another source of income, you cannot make a go at micro-distilling with 26 gallon pot stills. They may make for great prototyping and lab stills, but to actually make enough money to pay your bills, stills that small are not going to get you there. Let's talk about your concept from a throughput and man hours perspective. First some assumptions: You are going to make a 10% wash mash 50g at a time. Mash & Ferment are going to take you 3-4 days total. So lets say a run across the still takes ~3-4 hours for each strip and ~3-4 hours for a spirit run. 50g wash = 2 strip runs and 1 spirit run --> 9-12 hours + 1-2 hours for turn around during each run....so conservatively 15-16 hours. That 10% mash will yield a theoretical 5 gallons of ethanol @~80 ABV (you won't get that much on a still like this, but the numbers are easier). 5 gallons @ 80 ABV = 10 gallons @ 40 ABV. 10 gallons = 50, 750 mL bottles of finished product. Say your COGS is 50% and you sell you finished product for $30/ea -> your profit is $15/ea So, for an entire week of work you have just made = $15 * 50 = $750. So, let's go to your original question, "What about 4 of them in series?" First off, they won't be in series, but rather in parallel. You can play some games with staging, but for the most part you will need to think of them in series, because at a Net Income of $750 a week, you aren't going to be able to hire anyone to help you manage a proper mash/ferment/still staging schedule. Second off, the labor numbers on the distillation side won't 4x, but they are going to be much larger than you anticipate. Running back and forth, checking cuts, reloading stills, etc. is going to consume a great deal of your time.....more than 24 hours a day will allow. Thirdly, I'm not sure as to heat source on these stills, but if its electrically powered, you have an electrical bill that is going to change your COGS from 50 --> 60 or 70%. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naysaying your desire to open a distillery. I am however suggesting that unless your distillery is strictly a hobby and you have a stable source of outside income, stills of this size (in any multiple) are not appropriate for a business in which you intend to be the only source of your income. If you would like to discuss further, please PM me anytime. Good luck and I hope I helped a little.

Steve, Please allow me to suggest that you are in error on your ASME comment. Distillation equipment, even those that are vented to atmosphere are considered pressure vessels by the ASME code. It is standard in all industries that use Distillation equipment (Pharma, Petro-chem, etc) to secure ASME certification for all distillation equipment. The manufacturer often inserts a CYA that pressure relief valves are to be specified and installed by the client. All that being said, any distillation unit in Beverage Alcohol (even those vent to atmo) should have a MAWP of 15-25 PSI at 302F. For those of you reading these posts and looking to secure equipment (specifically distillation equipment), an ASME rating is a level of security that you can place on the manufacture of your equipment. Manufacturers unwilling or unable to provide ASME rated equipment should be at the bottom of your procurement priority list (ASME ratings for a shop are expensive to secure and maintain and some smaller shops just can't afford to participate, which is fine). You have too many things to be worrying about.....DSP license, bond, marketing, funding, etc, to be worrying if your equipment has a flaw that ASME practices would have found during manufacture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASME_Boiler_and_Pressure_Vessel_Code_(BPVC)

Cowdery, I guess I would like to offer a differing perspective on your assessment of "finer control". A properly designed continuous column can maintain a temperature difference at the spirit plate of +/- 1/10 of a degree F. That kind of control vastly exceeds that of a batch-column still. The batch-column still, has the inherent flaw of being controlled via heat input at the pot, and then relying on specifically designed column diameter, height, and internals to produce a 190+ vodka. I agree that many continuous columns in the industry are less precise, per your suggestion, because they do not manage overhead reflux & temperature control. Basically they use big direct steam injection columns designed to produce a certain product at the spirit plate without the ability to manipulate that product quality based upon reflux temperature control. However, in stills such as mine, I can manipulate the conditions of the spirit plate by changing reflux conditions, therefore affording a much higher degree of control. For instance, if I think that a corn vodka has a better profile at 178.2F while a rye vodka has a better profile at 180.1F, then I can change the temperature controller on my still to give hit those marks precisely. Overall, Cowdery your comment regarding precision is true in the industry as a whole, but in my CF still and a few other instances CF column stills have "finer controls" by an order of magnitude over batch-column stills.

Iain, You need to find out which code standards are in place in your area/city/county...such as NFPA, NEC, National Building Code, etc. All have very specific exclusions for Beverage Alcohol at any proof. Once you find out which codes are governing, please PM me and I will give you the exact sections of that code with the exclusions. If however, your area/city/county has not adopted uniform codes, then the standards in all chemical, petrochemical, and other types of storage are 1.25X spill containment volume for the largest tank onsite. So, if your largest tank is a 1000 gallon tank, you have to be able to retain 1250 gallons in a spill prevention dike. This might seem like a lot, but it really isn't. So for example: 1 ft^3 of liquid is occupied by ~7.4 gallons. Extrapolating 1250 g of required storage for our example, you would need 168 cubic feet. Ok, knowing that, if you were to build a 6" dike of mortar around your tank, you would need 672 ft^2, or 336 sqft of containment. But first and foremost, DO NOT ALLOW your area to constrain your operations when very specific exclusions exist in all of the National and International code standards for Beverage Alcohol. Push back otherwise your CAPEX and construction costs may be as much as 2X as it would be if you applied the exclusions in the codes. Good Luck.

You are correct, centrifugal pumps in this situation will require a "prime" to function properly. You could easily plumb a Tri-Clamp Tee and Quarter turn valve at the top of the curve in the hose between the pump and the barrel. Then to prime, you would open the valve, pour whiskey, water or other prime liquid in through the valve and tee and fill the hose. Then you'd be able to kick on the centrifugal and pump away. Alternatively, you could look into Air Operated Diaphragm Pumps, which are great for situations like these. Portable, small, and use compressed air as the mechanical force for the pump. Good luck.

Peter, I'd check that the double wall is actually a pass-thru jacket. My guess is that structurally, the outer wall is bound to the inner wall at various places and as such you're cooling medium won't be able to move through the 2nd wall as it would in a truly jacketed vessel. You may want to ping Robert over at Kothe. They sell 250g HDPE tanks, non jacketed, that you may be able to modify to your needs. Good luck.

I've seen some work done with resonant mixing, not ultrasonic. Overall, the issue isn't ultrasonics, pressure, heat, or other direct manipulated physical "work" that can be done....the overall issue is establishing a proper REDOX cycle in the presence of the proper catalyst. Once that REDOX cycle is in place, then physical manipulation of the aging process can assist in more rapidly maturing the product.

Another distiller shared this with me today, topical considering this thread. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/dining/whiskey-start-ups-are-rolling-out-a-smaller-barrel-sooner.html?_r=1&smid=fb-share

We evaluated a lot of options and the SBA/Commercial Lender option just offered the best deal. 10 yr fixed rates, loan guarantee helped take the risk off the bank. It was a thoughtful process, lots of inspection and introspection of the business and marketing plans, which helped a lot. First things first, put the business plan away and build a marketing plan. You are opening a marketing company that just happens to make hooch, regardless of your background, you are about to become a sales/marketing agent for your booze. Figure out your local & regional markets, barriers to entry, sales paths, etc, etc..... The numbers from that effort will drive the business plan....and in direct result will make your business plan that much more strong. Get to the distilleries in your area and bring them lunch, a good eat-on-your-feet lunch...because they'll probably be working constantly while you're there. Be ready with specific questions about the business, not the stills, mash/ferment, packaging....the business of "selling hooch". Once you have a good grasp on that, then look at the mechanics of making hooch. Keep going, you're asking great questions.

Welcome, O-Chem was stupid hard.....good on you for making a career out of it. As you say, with your background, Distillation isn't the big deal....but also with your background you're going to find that you have a great leg up on some aspects of the industry, especially extraction and maturation chemistry in barrels. Good luck with your funding. If you are going a traditional route, get with your local Small Business Development Corp and talk to them about the SBA 504 and 7A programs. With either loan guarantee under your belt from SBA, it will make getting your financing through a bank that much easier. Beware the investor, partner, or angel.....all come with drawbacks. If you can get this done on your own, do so...you'll be happier in the end. Good luck

Jack Daniels is already doing something like this (have been since Day 1), by passing the raw spirit through a packed column to do some pre-filtering, chemical exchange, and other early extraction techniques on their whiskey, prior to barreling. -but- There are some good references in Patent and Citations of scholarly articles on scholar.google.com. Limit your range to 2012-1960 and try searching for: "rapid aging whiskey" "aging whiskey" other... This industry is going through a lot of changes with the surge in micro-distillers entering the market and some of those people are Chem E's and Process Chemists who ask the same questions that you are asking. It is not inconceivable that people like you and those with some knowledge are going to get frustrated with the dark-ages mentality of aging beverage alcohol. In any other industry if you want an extraction, oxidation, and chemical reaction to occur in a set period of time, then you design a machine or series of reaction vessels to do it. Something along these line is going to happen in our industry in the next 10 years and those clinging to tradition and false logic are going to be sunk while those who adopt the change might be able to ride out where the industry is going to wind up. Keep looking, keep thinking.

Mine are Continuous Flow.

There are 2 methods that would work fine: Like you said, you could pump the condensate in the bottom of the 2nd column, back to the top of the first. However, in order to decrease preferential condensing and/or channeling in the first column, the pump would need to be discharging into a collector/distributor tray, such that the liquid is evenly dispersed across the packing below. Another method. Return the condensate to the kettle, via a P-Trap (like under a sink) in order to avoid pressure bypass issues. Once you're up and going (the column system is heated up) there shouldn't be too much in the way of condensate collecting in the 2nd column. You really only need either solution for startup. From a cost and ease-of-use perspective, option 2 is sort of your best bet.

Most of the GNS suppliers are sourcing from large fuel Ethanol refineries, which means that the large reputable GNS suppliers are providing about as clean and clear a product as one can possibly get. In fact, if you request it, you can get GNS which is purified past the distillation azetrope. The ASTM standards (test suite) for what goes in your gas tank include tests for PPB (parts per billion) contaminants (among others), which means for the most part GNS material is cleaner than what most any of us smaller distillers tend to produce. So... You can get a QA/QC (certified) analysis of the GNS in question. You can also get the source material used to produce the GNS. Finally, anyone who is redistilling or filtering GNS from a major producer are just making it less pure. If you're going the GNS route, just use it. Best, John

It is exactly this type of issue that we need all worry ourselves about, as an industry. Incidents such as this one, and more importantly the flippant response of the owners, is a serious red-flag to insurance companies, regulatory agencies, and other parties that can have a very large impact on our industry. Although they may indeed be good guys and liked by their neighbors in Anderson, this issue brings to light how many people are not using proper safety practices in this industry. If indeed this still does not have pressure valves, if indeed it is direct fired, and if this was a 2nd or 3rd distillation of high proof spirit (40% ABV and up)....then they are missing some critical issues that do not suggest they adhere to "strict safety procedures" as written in the article. To give a metric on this, in Google News, for Moonshine in the last month, this article rates as 10th out of 2700+ results. That kind of attention is what the rest of the industry does not need. Long and short, this industry needs to stop making hooch on thumpers, non-pressure rated stills, and other knockoffs. Someone is going to get severely hurt.

Basically, you should very quickly come to understand that the Feds and the TTB care very little about much in this industry, EXCEPT taxes. Those that are playing a loose and free game with scales or other such matters will eventually get corrected by the TTB inspector for their area. That correction is going to cost them a lot of money. In order to assist you early in the game, spend some time on the Tutorials offered by the TTB on their website. Trust me, they are going to cross your eyes, but ultimately will be very helpful. Storage Reports: http://www.ttb.gov/forms_tutorials/f511011/f511011_tutorial.html Processing Reports: http://www.ttb.gov/forms_tutorials/f511028/f511028_tutorial.html Production Reports: http://www.ttb.gov/forms_tutorials/f511040/f511040_tutorial.html Run yourself through them with this example: Month 1: Starting 100 P.G. of Whiskey produced. 40 P.G. Processed. 20 P.G. Sold. You can share the results here and we can opine on your level of complete-ness.

SOLD. Thanks all for looking.

4 Unused, 250 gallon, Konipac tanks for sale. We are selling the 4 tanks in the picture below for $3128, which works out to $782/ea. Each tank is HDPE, with a 2" bottom full port drain valve, removable lids, and are portable via forklift lift points. Reason for selling is due to expansion prior to being able to use these tanks. We are using 4 other tanks as fermenters, muddling tanks, spent grain storage tanks, barrel soaking tanks, etc. Please feel free to contact me for additional detail or photos. Sorry, but the old Pot Still is not for sale. Best, John McKee Owner/Distiller Headframe Spirits

Hewn, You have an interesting point, not one I had considered. But don't misread my intent, I don't believe that we need to have more regulations "just because", rather I believe that we need to get ahead of what will inevitably come down on us as the industry grows larger. Thus far this industry has been pretty small, pretty under the radar. However (if you're here at the ADI conference this week) you can plainly see that this industry's growth is exploding. I was here last year and the year previously and this year is the first time it felt claustrophobic. Read the 2012 Federal Budget with regard to rolling the TTB into the FDA. That is the core of my argument. The TTB is only concerned with revenue. Period. However, the FDA is concerned with a great deal of other factors than revenue, factors that can mean at least a 30-50% increase in your CAPEX and build-out budget & a 20-40% increase in your continuing annual operations costs. In your evaluation of your business plan, be conservative and add those factors to your financing such that you have a cushion (even if it doesn't happen you'll be in that much better shape). The only way to mitigate that eventual possibility is to form a group that creates a set of recognized standards that we can give to FDA to meld the process in which they choose to regulate us. Much in the same way that a myriad of industries use the ASTM process to assist the regulators in their specific industries. But like I said, you have a good point about the perception of trying to hold a market position. I should have done a better job of wording my original post. But please consider the overall intent in your planning. Best, McKee

Closed states have to report their sales numbers for all products sold. You should consider contacting the warehouse managers in those states and asking for a sales report for the previous year. A wealth of information can be had for nothing at all.