Barrel size

[Bill Coffey]

Is there any fire code,etc prohibiting the use of larger barrels? We are looking at some larger barrels (greater than 59 gallons) and were probably misinformed that we could not use barrels larger than 59 gallons. Thanks for any help

[sonnyk]

I am not sure from a Fire Code standpoint but I know that for DOT that if you transport spirits in over 60 gallon containers by truck they are considered Hazmat, while the 53 gallon barrels we transport from the distillery to the Rickhouse via truck are not as they are under the 60 gallon limit. 

[Patio29Dadio]

Nothing in the fire code that I am aware of.  Although the fire code does not definitively cover wood barrels.  There is a general interpretation that wood barrels are outside of the MAQ code for containers holding spirits (the 240 gallon limit for a sprinklered control room when container is closed).   In some jurisdictions they demand that the barrel storage be included and thus force the expensive C1D1 code compliance instead of the C1D2 that all craft distilleries should strive for. 

The thinking is that a wooden barrel would collapse from fire before it would become a bomb like would a stainless steel vessel... thus keeping the wooden barrel out of the MAQ.

Now, I there is a high-piled combustible stacking code that might play a part in determining barrel size (class 1B and 1C flammable liquid).  Each jurisdiction might vary and it matters if sprinklered or not, but it is a general limit of two standard 53 G barrels on racks stacked horizontal... maybe three if sprinklered.  Also depends on the roof height.   So a larger barrel might be an issue there. 

[Thatch]

3 hours ago, Bill Coffey said:

Is there any fire code,etc prohibiting the use of larger barrels?

No, oak barrels are exempt in the fire code.  The commentary in the fore code defers to the building code.  Basically they are saying "we agree with the MAQ's in the building 

21 minutes ago, Patio29Dadio said:

There is a general interpretation that wood barrels are outside of the MAQ code for containers holding spirits (the 240 gallon limit for a sprinklered control room when container is closed). 

I disagree.  They are included in the building code but not the fire code.  The "general interpretation" is incorrect.

[Thatch]

26 minutes ago, Patio29Dadio said:

two standard 53 G barrels on racks stacked horizontal... maybe three if sprinklered. 

120 gallons if not sprinkled and 240 if sprinkled.  This can be increased significantly by adding control areas.  You can have up to 3 additional control areas and if they are sprinkled you may have up to 960 gallons in storage and remain and F-1 facility.  If you are classified as H-3 there is no MAQ

[Thatch]

You might be referring to the proposed rule from TTB.  Search on this topic on this forum

19 hours ago, Bill Coffey said:

were probably misinformed that we could not use barrels larger than 59 gallons

TTB seeking comment on using ONLY 53G Barrels---the end of small distilling in america (?)

[et1883]

On 3/29/2019 at 12:47 PM, Thatch said:

No, oak barrels are exempt in the fire code.  The commentary in the fore code defers to the building code.  Basically they are saying "we agree with the MAQ's in the building 

I disagree.  They are included in the building code but not the fire code.  The "general interpretation" is incorrect.

Thatch, am I reading your remark correctly, that you say spirits-in-barrels are included in the 240gal MAQ per zone?   My understanding was that they were exempt from MAQ counting and so you could have up to the 240 gal MAQ in addition to spirits in barrels and bottles.   In any case, MAQ is subject to the authority having jurisdiction and they could require a lower MAQ regardless what any of the fire code says (NFPA 30, others).

[Thatch]

18 minutes ago, et1883 said:

Thatch, am I reading your remark correctly, that you say spirits-in-barrels are included in the 240gal MAQ per zone?   My understanding was that they were exempt from MAQ counting and so you could have up to the 240 gal MAQ in addition to spirits in barrels and bottles.   In any case, MAQ is subject to the authority having jurisdiction and they could require a lower MAQ regardless what any of the fire code says (NFPA 30, others).

Spirits in a barrel are included in the MAQ per zone.  In other words, if you are F-1 the most you can have is 960 gallons MAXIMUM not in bottles.  The 960 comes from 4 x 240 (4 control areas sprinkled - your distillery and 3 others).  There may be no maximums in the fire code but there are in the building code.  

[et1883]

the only option then if we want to barrel age our bourbon/rye/gin on site in 53-gal barrels would be to accept no more than 240-gal total including that in the barrels, or to go to a higher classification.   The distinctions between H1, H2, H3 for example are less clear than the F-1.   With room for 50 or more barrels, we're going to need a higher classification then.  

[et1883]

adding a point of discussion:  it seems that adding ventilation is the primary upgrade from F1 240-gal storage per zone if I am reading this correctly:  http://www.klausbruckner.com/blog/distillery-storage-dilemmas/ (and then only if wooden barrels are not used).  and venting is not required if storage in metal containers is less than 1000 gal/zone; ditto, back up power is not required if less than 1000 gal/zone.   Welcome corrections and comments.

[Thatch]

8 minutes ago, et1883 said:

Welcome corrections and comments.

This is a code review for a classification change from F-1 to H-3.  Although this references mostly Ohio Building Code the numbers should correspond directly to IBC and your local code.  Bottom line is, there's a lot more to it.  I believe that Scott Moore of @DalkitaConstruction  may have just joined the forum.  Scott consults on these matters and hopefully he will chime in on this thread.  Without knowing what you are adjacent to, it is not possible to comment further.

Preliminary Code Review to Convert Existing Malt House F-1/S-1 to H-3

Existing Building

Use Group H-3 - Distillery and spirit storage

Table 307.1(1) – Spirits at 50% alcohol or less is a 1C flammable liquid and requires an H-3 use group when the MAQ of 120 gal x 2 = 240 gal is in use or storage is exceeded.

OBC 414 – Hazardous Materials

414.1.3 – Report required to be submitted to AHJ describing max quantities and types of hazardous materials to be in-use or stored

414.3 Ventilation – Mechanical ventilation required. 1 CFM/SF continuous in areas or spaces where flammable vapors may be emitted due to processing, use, handling or storage. Make up air likely required.

414.5.1 – Explosion control is not required per OBC Table 414.5.1 – 1C not listed.

414.5.2 – Standby power may be required for the continuous ventilation. This would be exempt if the 1C flammable liquid is stored in containers not exceeding 6.5 gal.

IFC 2704.2.1 – Spill control needed if storage is in individual vessels of more than 55 gals. The barrels are smaller than 55 gal so no spill control needed.

IFC 2704.2.2 – Secondary containment is not required.

OBC – 415 Detailed requirements for H Groups

415.3 – Fire Alarm monitoring of sprinkler riser. Existing, complies.

415.4 – Automatic sprinkler. Design should be review for the change of use/occupancy.

415.5.1 – Emergency alarm. Local manual alarm outside of egress from a storage area is required.

415.6 – Greater than 25% of the perimeter wall is exterior wall, Complies.

415.6.1 – Group H minimum fire separation distance.

OBC Table 602 – Exterior wall fire-resistance rating based on fire separation distance. 26’ separation distance to the east and west property lines requires a 1 HR exterior wall rating for an H use group.

OBC CH 5 – Building area. Existing building area is 13,246SF is less than Table 506.2 14,000SF for a IIB, H-3. Complies without open perimeter or sprinkler area increases.

OBC 706 – Fire walls. A 2 HR rated fire wall exists between the 5B (combustible) B-use office and the 2B (non-combustible) F-1/S-1 to separate building construction type. Table 706.4 requires a 3 HR rated fire wall for an H-3 use group.

[Thatch]

45 minutes ago, et1883 said:

the only option then if we want to barrel age our bourbon/rye/gin on site in 53-gal barrels would be to accept no more than 240-gal total including that in the barrels, or to go to a higher classification.  

No, 960 gallons with the additional control areas you said you had approved.