Gin and Vendome pot still

[WiscoDistiller]

I’d love to have a chat with anyone running Gin on a 500 or 250 gallon vendome pot still with a 4 plate column. We are having real issues and I have some specific questions for distillers using this equipment

thanks

[Kindred Spirits]

What issues are you currently facing?

[WiscoDistiller]

I'll try and shorten this story,

2 experienced gin distillers with 5 different gins, 4 of which are in the market and multi award winning.

The previous versions of these gins were produced on a different system.

We've distilled 12 batches on this still with the same recipes but please keep in mind that we are not silly enough to think we were going to get an exact match on flavor and aroma. We expected changes.

All of these gins come off the still as expected, full of flavor and aroma and at distillation proof are wonderful.

after slow proofing to bottle strength  they fall apart. flat, flavorless, muddled, basically unacceptable.

We know that we are gettin oils across as the cloud under 40% 

Proofing with RO from 2 different plants and with distilled water, same results.

Close off column and run through empty gin basket, same result.

Run hot and fast or slow and methodical, same result.

All batches are macerated overnight in 120 proof high quality GNS. One set is organic GNS and the other is standard wheat GNS. Same result.

Macerate at 120 and add water to distill at 100, same result. 

We're left with 2 variables, either we need to increase the botanical load which could end up making a multi shot or this beautiful still needs to be run differently on gin that the various others we've run on in the past

What I would really like to know at this point is information from a distiller running the same set up on gin on your average botanical load, grams per liter, pounds per gallon etc. 

Thanks in advance

[Foreshot]

Did you previously use a plated still? Because when I think about making a macerated gin, I 100% do not think plated still. If you're going to keep that still you probably will need to use bypasses for the plates or change the recipe to one using a vapor basket. Based on what you are saying as symptoms I would assume the plates are causing chemical chaos with your recipe. 

[WiscoDistiller]

4 minutes ago, Foreshot said:

Did you previously use a plated still? Because when I think about making a macerated gin, I 100% do not think plated still. If you're going to keep that still you probably will need to use bypasses for the plates or change the recipe to one using a vapor basket. Based on what you are saying as symptoms I would assume the plates are causing chemical chaos with your recipe. 

I've run plated still on gin before and I agree that the plates were my first thought. We never ran with the plates not set to drain or with and deflagmater on. We also shut off the column completely and ran everything through the vapor basket path which bypasses the column but with the same results so that ruled out the plates and column causing this issue.

[Foreshot]

How about recipe batch size? Is it a big change up?

How about the agitator? Did you use that before? I know using an agitator changed the flavor of mine. 

Any chance it's a bad batch of botanicals? Maybe one isn't producing the way it should? Or is it all the flavors?

[WiscoDistiller]

19 minutes ago, Foreshot said:

How about recipe batch size? Is it a big change up?

How about the agitator? Did you use that before? I know using an agitator changed the flavor of mine. 

Any chance it's a bad batch of botanicals? Maybe one isn't producing the way it should? Or is it all the flavors?

Batch sizes match, all 1000 L

We've run with the agitator on until we get the first spirit then off and we've run with it on all day, have not yet tried never using it.

These 12 runs are across multiple months and multiple batches of botanicals, Each of the 5 recipes are so incredibly varied in whats in them that other than the standard Juniper and coriander and citrus, they are not comparable.

I appreciate you talking this through with me

[JustAndy]

What was the previous still design/shape? Are the distillation proofs & cut points the same?

Since you've tried bypassing the plates, I wondered about the condenser of the vendome vs the previous still- 
Does the vendome have a copper condenser or stainless? 

[WiscoDistiller]

7 hours ago, JustAndy said:

What was the previous still design/shape? Are the distillation proofs & cut points the same?

Since you've tried bypassing the plates, I wondered about the condenser of the vendome vs the previous still- 
Does the vendome have a copper condenser or stainless? 

The previous still was stainless with direct steam injection, copper column with no plates with a copper lyne arm and stainless condenser. The vendome still is all copper to a stainless lyne arm and then a copper condenser. Proofs all basically match and cut points, while being done via sensory are basically the same in terms of volume.

[WiscoDistiller]

Another thing I'm now looking into is levels of dissolved oxygen in the RO proofing water. Does anyone have info on what these levels are in a normal situation?

 

 

[JustAndy]

Direct steam vs steam jacket could be a big change if there is a botanical load in the still. My two guesses are: 1. switching from stainless to copper condenser as that can have a huge impact on the copper contact (depending on where the condensation point is in the copper condenser) and some botanicals you are using might be more susceptible to reacting with copper (grape fruit is an example) 

2. A change in one or more of the botanicals (different source, or older, poor/extended storage) maybe of one of the fixative botanicals like orris or angelica root .  

[SlickFloss]

You need to provide more information on the original still before anyone can diagnose your problem with scaling. It's likely a method issue but without more information there's no way to be sure.

[jocko]

One thing I was wondering as I scale my own gin up is what the heat up time on your old still vs. your new still as well as the takeoff rate of each as a percentage of total ethanol volume per minute. 

Wondering how much time the botanicals are spent in the warming temps then at boil, impacting the extraction.  This is a real concern for me as the test batches are very small (4 liters) and the still heats up in 15 minutes. From turning it on to first drop.  It's done in 1.5 hours. 

With my 1500L production still, it will take much longer than 15 minutes and much longer to complete.  So -- quite a bit more time of having the botanicals stew  in hot ethanol.  That must change the flavor substantially.  We'll see.  Ramping to a larger pilot still soon.  10 then 20 then 40 gallons soon but I'm bracing myself for substantial changes. 

[Cosmic.Distiller]

Just curious, do you have some gin from your previous batch on hand that you are trying it against?

[WiscoDistiller]

5 hours ago, Cosmic.Distiller said:

Just curious, do you have some gin from your previous batch on hand that you are trying it against?

We do have previous batched for comparison. 

 

With much help here and elsewhere we are going to try again with the following. Full still charge of 500 gallons at 50% in order to keep the liquid level above the agitator the entire run to make sure all the botanicals stay in suspension. Because the Vendome still has only the lower 6-8" as a jacket for steam this should help keep everything moving. Even though we are not using the column, we will keep the dephlagmater cold to knock down anything that gets up there back into the pot

[Kindred Spirits]

Just curious, how much time are you permitting to allow the flavors to meld after distilling it? I saw you did a slow proofing, but that can be wildly different from one distillery to another. Typically a few weeks are needed to arrive at the finished flavor profile.

 

Just in terms of why things aren't turning out the same, I imagine the change in flavor is from the change in manner of heating.

Direct injection of steam is a totally different heating style from steam jacketing. 

You are no longer adding steam and water into the kettle during the heating process which is changing the amount of time (compared to previous batches) that your botanicals are being subjected to heating at different alcohol levels.

Do you happen to remember what level of liquid remained in the equipment after previous runs on the other still? I imagine these new runs are much lower so you may not be getting as much extraction of some of the water soluable components of the botanicals.

Just as a trial if you still haven't figured out whats going on, It might pay to add some extra water into the boiler to start to help make up for the difference of water not being added by the direct steam injection.