Grappa Producers ...

[Tirador]

I am preparing to produce grappa this fall (fall 2011). I have distilled pumice brandies before so my questions aren't necessarily technical (though I might have a few of those too), but I'd like to speak with folks that are commercially producing pumice brandies here in the U.S. ...

I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to ask actual producers here, rather then posting them on the forum.

I have plenty of European contacts ... but have U.S. specific questions.

So, if anyone wants to get in touch that would be really great.

S.

[Gwydion Stone]

I don't have commercial scale experience with grappa, but I wanted to mention that the term is spelled "pomace". Pumice is a type of lava rock.

Best of luck with the grappa project!

[bluestar]

We haven't done a grappa yet, although we are planning grappa as part of our core activity, and were looking into do a test batch at another microdistillery while we are still setting up our own. So, I suppose we would have many of the same questions that you do concerning US production. We plan to use local pomace, since from what I have learned the availability of the raw material is a primary cost driver. We are in southwest Michigan, which is a major grape producing region of the midwest (although only small portion is vinifera for wine). I know there is wine production in Colorado, but I imagine there is less pomace available? In any case, I would appreciate the opportunity to share gathered knowledge with others.

[Jonathan Forester]

I just wanted to note that some of the best new grappas, made both here in the US, and Italy, are not using pomace, but are using whole skin wines. The quality of the few I tried are unbelievable, a huge increase in flavor, quality, smoothness, etc.

[Tirador]

I just wanted to note that some of the best new grappas, made both here in the US, and Italy, are not using pomace, but are using whole skin wines. The quality of the few I tried are unbelievable, a huge increase in flavor, quality, smoothness, etc.

Jonathan,

The grappas in Italy, by law must use pomace and further that pomace must be used without any water added (though a lot of producers there select the grapes and crush specifically to produce pomace for their grappa ... as opposed to using the traditional pomace casts-off from the wine making process). They also now use special stills that further change the process (though there is a lot of agrument whether or not these steam-stills make a better product or not).

If it's called grappa and it's produced in Italy, it's made from pomace, not a whole skin wine (at least if the distiller follows their laws).

In the US and South Africa there are producers making what they call Grappa that are actually whole skin wine based Eaux de Vie, so of course they are smoother ... they're simply unaged grape brandy, and a very different product. For that matter, the "premium" Tsipuro you buy in Greece is often not true Tsipuro (greek/macedonian pumace brandy), but rather simply a quality unaged grape brandy that is labled as such.

We're going to be producing grappa using pomace cast-off from the wine making process, not making a grape brandy and labelling it as grappa.

We will use the same methods that the higher quality grappa producers in Italy have traditionally used to make decent grappa (including using an old Alquitar still similar to those used in wineries in both Italy and Spain to make grappa or pomace brandy for the last couple hundred years)... and we'll see how it works. We will also be producing a whole skin grape wine based product as well, but will be calling that what it is ... a grape Eau de Vie.

Thanks for the comments though.

[Tirador]

We haven't done a grappa yet, although we are planning grappa as part of our core activity, and were looking into do a test batch at another microdistillery while we are still setting up our own. So, I suppose we would have many of the same questions that you do concerning US production. We plan to use local pomace, since from what I have learned the availability of the raw material is a primary cost driver. We are in southwest Michigan, which is a major grape producing region of the midwest (although only small portion is vinifera for wine). I know there is wine production in Colorado, but I imagine there is less pomace available? In any case, I would appreciate the opportunity to share gathered knowledge with others.

I'd love to share some knowledge.

Raw material is the key, both in cost and in quality of flavor ... some of what I'm trying to learn is based yeild tied to brix level, and some of the halding issues beginning with the pomace coming out of the crusher. I know what some producers in Italy and Spain are doing and I've watched producers in Greece so I have an idea there too ... but we're operating in a much different environment.

Anyway, how do I reach you?

S.

[Tirador]

I don't have commercial scale experience with grappa, but I wanted to mention that the term is spelled "pomace". Pumice is a type of lava rock.

Best of luck with the grappa project!

Great to hear from you Gwydion ... I know, I spell horribly when I'm typing on these things. I'm a victum of the spell-check crutch. How've you been? I've been meaning to say hi for some time ... ever since my drinking a large portion of a bottle of your stuff on my last visit to Pravda.

I hope things are going well for you.

As you may or may not know, I relocated to Colorado over the last year and it substantially delayed getting Redux to market ... and with all the new Absinthes around I'm debating if I want to sell it here in the U.S. at all. I've got ready customers off-shore, so I do need to do something with the brand though and soon or those will disappear (it may already be too late ...). Anyway, we should catch up some time.

S.

[Steve F]

We haven't done a grappa yet, although we are planning grappa as part of our core activity, and were looking into do a test batch at another microdistillery while we are still setting up our own. So, I suppose we would have many of the same questions that you do concerning US production. We plan to use local pomace, since from what I have learned the availability of the raw material is a primary cost driver. We are in southwest Michigan, which is a major grape producing region of the midwest (although only small portion is vinifera for wine). I know there is wine production in Colorado, but I imagine there is less pomace available? In any case, I would appreciate the opportunity to share gathered knowledge with others.

Actually, my question could be directed towards any of the people on this thread who have expressed aspirations/plans to produce grappa. Can producers in the US market their product under the name 'grappa', even if it is distilled according to strict Italian specifications using pomace, etc? I was under the impression that 'grappa' was a protected name, such as cognac and champagne, by European Union directive/law, so that only pomace liquor produced in Italy can be called grappa. Or is there possibly flexibility to use the name in the US market as long as you do not export outside of the US?

Full disclosure, I am toying with the idea of producing grappa for a limited regional customer base in NY.

[Classick]

I've been producing grappas ( from pommace) in California for over 9 years now... I make a grappa di cabernet under my own label, as well as produce grappas for several wineries up and down california, from Napa to Santa Maria.

I even co-lead the grappa panel at the last ADI event at St George Distillery earlier in 2010 ( or it might have been in 2009, i forget).

Im happy to pass on what i've learned along the way.

[Classick]

Actually, my question could be directed towards any of the people on this thread who have expressed aspirations/plans to produce grappa. Can producers in the US market their product under the name 'grappa', even if it is distilled according to strict Italian specifications using pomace, etc? I was under the impression that 'grappa' was a protected name, such as cognac and champagne, by European Union directive/law, so that only pomace liquor produced in Italy can be called grappa. Or is there possibly flexibility to use the name in the US market as long as you do not export outside of the US?

Full disclosure, I am toying with the idea of producing grappa for a limited regional audience in NY.

Its not protected in the same sense as an appellation control, however you are still prohibited from having the word "grappa" IN the title of the product... that is not to say it cannot appear on the bottle, you just have to fill out your label approval a certain way. For example, If was able to have a label approved for a grappa i was making for a client that was entitled "XYZ" grappa... when i filled out the form, the name of the product was XYZ, but grappa still appeared on the label, it just had to be distinctive from the actual submitted title... different font, different font size.

also, just because a label is rejected one way.. doesnt mean it wont be accepted by another TTB agent... they really know little to nothing about spirits in general, so sometimes its just the luck of the draw. If your label gets rejected... wait a week or so then re-submit it.. maybe you'll get another agent.

[Steve F]

Its not protected in the same sense as an appellation control, however you are still prohibited from having the word "grappa" IN the title of the product... that is not to say it cannot appear on the bottle, you just have to fill out your label approval a certain way. For example, If was able to have a label approved for a grappa i was making for a client that was entitled "XYZ" grappa... when i filled out the form, the name of the product was XYZ, but grappa still appeared on the label, it just had to be distinctive from the actual submitted title... different font, different font size.

also, just because a label is rejected one way.. doesnt mean it wont be accepted by another TTB agent... they really know little to nothing about spirits in general, so sometimes its just the luck of the draw. If your label gets rejected... wait a week or so then re-submit it.. maybe you'll get another agent.

Thanks, Dave. So I can actually have 'grappa' in the title of my product as long as it meets TTB specifications du jour? When you say 'have a label approved for a grappa I was making for a client," though, it sounds as if you're talking about a limited edition of a product. If grappa was the mainstay of my company, would you still think it would be alright to have the word 'grappa' on the bottle? You don't think down the line, I could run into problems with another government agency regarding trade laws or something along those lines?

Is there anybody else on this discussion thread who can verify that they use the word 'grappa' on their labels or have seen it used for an American product? Also, when an American grappa producer does not use the word 'grappa' in their label, what is the standard nomenclature - is it 'pomace brandy' or 'pomace liqueur' or are there a number of possible combination of descriptive names used?

[Classick]

no.. it wasnt limited production... I make grappa for all types of clients... wineries that want to expand their product offerings, clients that just wanted a side project but are trying to produce as a sole product, and my own grappa i've released under my label.

A label approval is a label approval.

[Spirit of Hven]

Hi,

I have been working with grappas for some years, below id the regulation regarding grappa in europe.

6. Grape marc spirit or grape marc

(a) Grape marc spirit or grape marc is a spirit drink which meets the following conditions:

(i) it is produced exclusively from grape marc fermented and distilled either directly by water vapour or after water has been added;

(ii) a quantity of lees may be added to the grape marc that does not exceed 25 kg of lees per 100 kg of grape marc used;

(iii) the quantity of alcohol derived from the lees shall not exceed 35 % of the total quantity of alcohol in the finished product;

(iv) the distillation shall be carried out in the presence of the marc itself at less than 86 % vol.;

(v) redistillation at the same alcoholic strength is authorised;

(vi) it contains a quantity of volatile substances equal to or exceeding 140 grams per hectolitre of 100 % vol. alcohol and has a maximum methanol content of 1000 grams per hectolitre of 100 % vol. alcohol.

( The minimum alcoholic strength by volume of grape marc spirit or grape marc shall be 37,5 %.

© No addition of alcohol as defined in Annex I(5), diluted or not, shall take place.

(d) Grape marc spirit or grape marc shall not be flavoured. This shall not exclude traditional production methods.

(e) Grape marc spirit or grape marc may only contain added caramel as a means to adapt colour.

---------------------------

The regulations found at http://eur-lex.europa.eu (no 110/2008) also stipulates that grappa should be made in italy, but the only case i know went to court was against south africa, dispite products called grappa are made all over the world. I would see no harm or immidiate danger in calling a grape originated spirit for grappa as long as it does not sell ten containers a week in to EU.

Cheers

Henric Molin

[Classick]

Also, you may already know this, but according to the TTB you DO NOT need a formula approval for a grappa label approval. Dont let them bully you into needing one, i have a signed document from TTB to this affect too if you need a copy.

However, if you decide to add some wine back into the skins, in hopes of a better yield, there is a caveat. If i recall, it's either that you WILL need a formula approval with juice added (of if the pommace is otherwise altered from its original state) OR you that cant call it a grappa and it would fall under a different category ( possibly marc brandy). Im sorry i dont remember exactly, but i know that technically its an issue... Normally, i just tell the winemakers i work with, if they are going to add juice back into the grapes, just do it before they deliver them to me... and dont tell me about it

[Steve F]

Dave and Henric, thank you for replying to my questions about the grappa nomenclature and adding some valuable info about formula specifications. This is very helpful for my planning process. I can tell that this forum/site is going to be invaluable if I go through with this business.

Another question: I will most likely secure pomace in Long Island - is there an ideal time after the harvest to get it, and do the wineries keep pomace around for long after the harvest, or is there a small time window when a grappa distiller can purchase it?

Steve

[Classick]

Depending on the wineries.. some might even give you the pommace, as long as you coordinate the arrival of your macro bins ( it helps to have your own) with the date of their pressing... Most wineries just consider pommace a fertilizer for their vines. ( PS we have some extra macro bins for sale, but they are here in California, so it might not be worth it with the shipping)

The harvest time depends on which grape varietal you are using... Here in California.. the Zin's and petite syrahs tend to be picked/pressed around late sept, early October... the Cabs and merlots late November early December... depending on how the weather has behaved and when the grapes are ready.

I love living in California, and producing grappa for all the different wineries because it affords me the opportunity to play with all the different types of varietals (at someone else's expense) I have found the Zinfandel to be my favorite varietal, but thats just me.. i also really love a nice bold California cabernet grappa.

Remember, once you distill the pommace, you also have to dispose of it.. it might help to have an arrangement with a local farmer to come pick up the spent pommace for cattle feed, or fertilizer or something. When i am making the grappa for wineries, i usually make them come pick up the pommace when they take receipt of their goods.

[bluestar]

Look in BAM, Vol. 2 page 4-7. Grappa appears to simply be categorized as a Pomace or Marc Brandy made from grapes. Pomace or Marc Brandy is described as "Brandy distilled from the skin and pulp of sound, ripe fruit after the withdrawal of the juice or wine". Note that if the fruit is NOT grape, you have to indicate the fruit for a Pomace or Marc Brandy. Hence, the terms Pomace Brandy, Marc Brandy, Grappa, and Grappa Brandy all appear to mean the same thing in BAM. Two other relevant categories perhaps are Lees Brandy and Residue Brandy. None of them really address the idea of adding back juice or mixing juice to pomace, lees, or residue--they all appear to refer only to material from which juice has been removed. Interestingly, the category of Brandy limits how much lees, pomace, or residue or its brandy may be added to the product to still be called only Brandy. This leaves us with the question, what do you call something that has a higher mixture of pomace, lees, or residues? Does that move it into the Pomace, Lees, Residues Brandy category, and hence suggests that these can be diluted to the same limits? Or is it a no-mans land?

Also, you may already know this, but according to the TTB you DO NOT need a formula approval for a grappa label approval. Dont let them bully you into needing one, i have a signed document from TTB to this affect too if you need a copy.

However, if you decide to add some wine back into the skins, in hopes of a better yield, there is a caveat. If i recall, it's either that you WILL need a formula approval with juice added (of if the pommace is otherwise altered from its original state) OR you that cant call it a grappa and it would fall under a different category ( possibly marc brandy). Im sorry i dont remember exactly, but i know that technically its an issue... Normally, i just tell the winemakers i work with, if they are going to add juice back into the grapes, just do it before they deliver them to me... and dont tell me about it

[Classick]

or more to the point.. how would you measure something like that.. I mean... The pommace i use is almost all skin, but im sure there is a certain amount of juice in there too...

[Steve F]

I am preparing to produce grappa this fall (fall 2011). I have distilled pumice brandies before so my questions aren't necessarily technical (though I might have a few of those too), but I'd like to speak with folks that are commercially producing pumice brandies here in the U.S. ...

I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to ask actual producers here, rather then posting them on the forum.

I have plenty of European contacts ... but have U.S. specific questions.

So, if anyone wants to get in touch that would be really great.

S.

S,

I would love to talk shop with you, if your offer is still open. I'm about to start a commercial operation in Brooklyn and would like to compare notes. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you my contact info.

Steve

[cowdery]

Unless you plan to market your grappa in Europe, you don't care what the European rules require.

'Grappa' is not a protected name like 'bourbon' or 'cognac,' as in protected by bi-lateral agreement, a situation which pisses off the Italian grappa producers, but there it is. So there should be no impediment to using the name 'grappa' on a product made for the U.S. market. If you anticipate a problem with TTB you can easily document that fact.