Pot vs column

[Bolverk]

Howdy all,

I'm hoping I can get your options/thoughts on this dilemma I'm having...

I'm in the planning phase of my distillery. I know I'll need to process 250g of beer per week. A 250g pot/hybrid will absolutely work. A 250g pot has a track record of success and I can't argue that. But here's my challenge... all the commercial suites out here where I want to be located only have 200a services and no 3ph, and that means if I run enough power to heat the kettle in a reasonable time (36kw is still over 2 hours to heat up). I'll be just about maxed out on power with air conditioning,  and other ancillaries and potentially be popping breakers. Unless I go gas, but none of the places I want to be located have a large enough gas service to support a boiler of adequate size, or these suites dont have gas at all. The alternative is a continous, it'll use less power, for the same processing volume/speed, but I don't know that it'll produce the heavier whiskey profiles I'm going for.

There's also the marketing factor, pot stills seem to have far more allure and more of a connection to history (despite columns having been around for nearly 200 hundreds years).

So do I use the pot and just I suck up running under powered and inefficiently, or do a column and potentially not be able to make the product as I want? I've kinda got decision paralysis,  your thoughts would be appreciated..

Thanks in advance.

[JustAndy]

Without doing any heat calculations, why not just get a smaller still? 250 gallons a week is not much, even if you only distilled 1 day a week you could do it pretty easily on a 100 gallon still if you use a heat exchanger or thermal tank to preheat the incoming wash with the hot stillage. 

[Bolverk]

I see what you're saying and that's a good idea.

250 a week gets me through my first year, then as business gets up and going it scales really well. Year 1, 1 run a week, year 2, 2 a week, etc... 

The other benefit to the 250 is it covers the 14 gal I'll need a week to break even, and leaves just enough to put away in barrels without more shifts (I'll still be working my day job for the first few years). 

If i do the 100 gal ill have maxed out my capabilities before the bulk of my aged product is really selling and I won't have the money to upgrade yet. 

 

[Bolverk]

I ran the 100 gal with two batches per shift through my calculator and the scenario works, but just barely. I'd need to do 2.5-3 batches to meet my break even and put enough away for aging. This is less than ideal, but it'll at least get things off the ground.

Or I do something like the SD 4" column that runs on the same power as a 100 gal pot and I can hit the production volume of a 250 gal still in an 8 hr period. 

I guess what I don't know is if I can get similar pot whiskey profiles pulling product lower on a column (think coffey style but with draw points on every level of the rectifier side).

 

 

 

[Southernhighlander]

Our 105 gallon Standard Series pot stills have 6" columns and will give you the production that you need and the price is outstanding.  They have  a 22kw heating system, so the Amp draw is less than 92 amps at 240v single phase. Or we have 250 gallon pot stills with boilers that are propane fired.  Can you have a propane tank at any of the spaces that you are looking at?  What size are the gas services at these spaces?  For one of our 250 gallon Pro Series pot stills you could run a boiler with only 125,000 BTUs of low pressure steam boiler output for a 2 hour heat up time or twice that for a 1 hour heat up time.  It doesn't take a lot of gas to produce 125,000 BTUs. We could reduce the natural gas boiler size even more for a 3hr heat up time and you could still complete your run in around 10hrs and even a small natural gas service will do the job.  Or if it is allowed you could fire the still with a wood fired or diesel fuel fired hydronic boiler.  I could build you a vacuum still that would distill at 155F using 190F hot water that would give you a fast heat up and run time.  There are lots of options.  We can discuss it on here or you can call me at 417-270-0930.  I think the most important questions currently is the size of the gas services and whether propane tanks are allowed.  

[Madmanager]

First off, Southernhighlander is your guy. They sell the best gear for fair prices and the service for my system has been great. All I can tell you is our journey. I purchased a 250 gal still and ran it as an electric bain-marie as well as mashing in the still. I did that for a few years. Then I purchased a steam boiler and converted the still over to steam and bought a mash-tun. This year we are going to buy a 1000 gallon stripping still and use the 250 for spirit runs. So the 250 was a really good tool for us to grow. Year one we did about 25 barrels (1600 PG) last year we did 200 barrels (12,000 PG) on that same still. Next year with 1000 gal striping still and 250 gal spirit still we should have the capacity to make about 600 barrels. The biggest thing I would have changed is to go steam from the start and buy a bigger boiler than you need now. What I spent to get the electric up to snuff was about half of what a good boiler would have cost. Don't go into a building that does not have gas. I know a couple of other distillers who use propane and the cost is crazy. Happy to chat by phone, but Southernhighlander is about the best vendor I've dealt with at this level. 

[Bolverk]

The gas service to most of these places is either 1/2 or 3/4 (depending). I'm finding that most of them don't have gas at all, and propane and wood would be a hard no.

A 10 hour run for 250g is the exactly the reason I'm questioning this, that is wildly inefficient. At the correct power that 250g run should only take like 5-6 hours including heat up.

 

Yeah, the 250g has a track record of success. Everything I've read here on ADI, SD, and my own analysis supports that. Yeah you can do smaller, and there are success storys for sure. BUT everyone I've spoken with that started smaller (and is still around) wishes they started with at least a 250g. 

 

If my forecasts are accurate and I can make it to year 6, then I can build my own building and put in whatever services I want and then upgrade to 500g+

 

[Windy City]

What pressure is the gas line ie: low, medium or high? If it is medium or high pressure you have plenty. If it is low pressure, how far are you from the meter and could you upsize the piping from the meter into your space.

I don't know where you are located, but here in Illinois gas is way cheaper.

[Bolverk]

It's low-pressure and it could be 100ft+ away in some places.

I dont have the place yet, the one place i had in the works got leased out from under me, so im back to looking. 

I'm in AZ.

Gas would absolutely be the preferable option, its just looking like the hardest one if I want a place that has any foot traffic. 

[Southernhighlander]

Run time with our 250 gallon still, with one of our properly sized Rite boilers, can be as little as 4 hours including heat up.  I would never do a whiskey run that fast but the still will do it, if that's what you want.  It would only take 10hrs if you ran an undersize boiler because of an inadequate gas supply but a 1/2" or 3/4" line at medium or high pressure will give you way more than enough gas for the faster run time.  You could run a 600 gallon pot still off that with no issues.  More than 500 of our stills are in distilleries across the US.  Our fastest non vacuum pot stills put out 75 gallons of whiskey per hour and cost less than continuous column stills with the same production. Our vacuum stills will do stripping runs in as little as 1.5 hrs from start to finish. Most of our customers purchase full sets of equipment from us including, the still, CIP system, steam boiler, chiller, mash tun, fermenters, mash pumps, high proof pumps, receiving tanks, proofing tanks and blending tanks. The electrical systems on our stills, are built in house here in the US.  Our agitators, and pumps have US made explosion proof motors.  If you would like a quote just give me a holler.  417-270-0930 or email paul@distillery-equipment.com. Thanks and good luck with whatever you decide. 

 

[Southernhighlander]

18 hours ago, Bolverk said:

It's low-pressure and it could be 100ft+ away in some places.

I dont have the place yet, the one place i had in the works got leased out from under me, so im back to looking. 

I'm in AZ.

Gas would absolutely be the preferable option, its just looking like the hardest one if I want a place that has any foot traffic. 

Low pressure should give you enough as well, as long as you increase the line size from the meter.

[Bolverk]

Thanks all

[RyeWater]

I would strongly advise against stills smaller than 250 gallons for a commercial application where selling bottles is at the core of your business model. If your focus is more toward onsite operations (events/cocktails/tasting room sales) then you can get away with a smaller still.  But, if you have any real success and you have a 100-gallon still on your production floor then you are going to have a hell of a time trying to meet demand and will be spending a fortune on labor (or all your time) running distillations.  If you do go with a larger still (200 gallon+) I would not to consider locations without Natural Gas and 3P power unless there are no other options.  Ideally, you want steam jacket heating and a natural gas-powered boiler for even cooking and low utility bills.

 

[Bolverk]

100% agreed, that is the goal.

Just looking at options in case less than ideal becomes the only way.

[Pofarmer]

I'm just gonna interject something here, and it may be off base, but - when has that stopped anybody? Lol. Anywho. If you are running a continuous column aren't you still going to need a finishing still? What do you do if product comes off the still that needs to be cleaned up or is somehow unacceptable? At least with a pot still you can re distill and do a spirit run. What do you do if there's a need or market for a different product and a continuous column is no longer a good fit? And I agree with RyeWater. A location without sufficient NG and 3Ph really just wouldn't be an acceptable location. 3 Phase motors in a commercial setting have numerous advantages over single Phase all throughout the process.

[Bolverk]

Yeah,  that's something that someone else just kinda put in my ear as well. You can make damn near anything on a pot, but a column is more more limited. So the column of off the table for now. 

In thinking about this id only be at full power during warm up (which I could do early AM) then dial back power by for the run and that would give me more availability on the smaller 200a service. NG is still the goal, just exploring options.

 

As for 3ph, does anyone know if a phase converter can be used or is that entirely up to the jurisdiction? 

[Southernhighlander]

2 hours ago, Bolverk said:

 

In thinking about this id only be at full power during warm up (which I could do early AM) then dial back power by for the run and that would give me more availability on the smaller 200a service. NG is still the goal, just exploring options.

 

As for 3ph, does anyone know if a phase converter can be used or is that entirely up to the jurisdiction? 

A phase converter is not necessary for our agitators or pumps. Being limited to single phase power is not an issue.  We supply VFDs for all of our 3 phase agitator and mash pump motors that will run them from a single phase or 3 phase power supply (we do not utilize any single phase motors).  The VFDs are necessary for variable speed and reversing capabilities, so phase conversion is just an added bonus.  Many of our customers do not have 3 phase power so we supply electric heating systems in either 3 phase or single phase on all of our Baine Marie and direct fired electric stills.  My manufacturing facility here in MO is in a rural area where there is no 3 phase.  We have two 1,000 amp single phase services at our facility, so getting enough single phase amps to fire large stills is certainly doable.  Ideally a location with 3 phase power and natural gas is best however, it is certainly not necessary.  The largest whiskey/bourbon distillery in VA runs our stills, mash tuns and agitated fermenters and they have neither 3 phase power nor natural gas.  They run their ten million BTU low pressure steam boiler off of propane and the stills we sold them come standard with VFDs.  There is a distillery here in MO that purchased four of our 500 gallon Baine Marie stills.  They use electric heating systems to fire the four 500 gallon Baine Marie Ultra Pro Vodka stills and they are some of our most successful customers.  The largest electric Baine Marie still that we have sold was 800 gallons.  The customer that purchased it has an old factory with a very large industrial 480 volt service and the power was incredibly cheap and there was no natural gas in the vicinity, so the 800 gallon electric still was exactly what he needed.   I always suggest a natural gas fired low pressure steam boiler and of course we sell steam boilers, however real world situations determine different needs for different folks and we are here to do our best to fill whatever needs the customer has, no matter how unique.  If enough vacuum is pulled in a still to lower the boiling point of ethanol by 20 to 30 degrees f, hot water becomes a very viable heating alternate that gives fast run times.  If the customer needs an electric still with on board steam generation, the open system pressurization module (OSPM) that I invented will give them that.  If the customer wants to fire their still with a wood or oil fired hot water boiler that is not a problem.  If you need a vacuum still that will distill at 80 degrees F using a commercial hot water heater as the heat source that is not a problem either.  If you need a 2500 gallon pot still that will put out 75 gallons of white dog per hour, we can build it and in fact have now built several of them.  If someone needs a small cracking column to refine crude oil, I have designed and built them as well as equipment for unique processes such as turning algae into fuel.  If you find a location that you really like that is not ideal in some ways, let me know and we will see if we can fit your needs at that location in both a cost effective and efficient manner. 

[Southernhighlander]

6 hours ago, Bolverk said:

 

 

As for 3ph, does anyone know if a phase converter can be used or is that entirely up to the jurisdiction? 

A phase converter will not help with an electric heating system.  You will draw the same single phase amps with or without the phase converter when firing immersion heaters.

[Bolverk]

1 minute ago, Southernhighlander said:

A phase converter will not help with an electric heating system.  You will draw the same single phase amps with or without the phase converter when firing immersion heaters.

I meant for things like agitators, pumps, etc. I get that the amp draw is still the same overall.

[Southernhighlander]

47 minutes ago, Bolverk said:

I meant for things like agitators, pumps, etc. I get that the amp draw is still the same overall.

VFD drives that convert from single phase to 3 phase are better options than phase converters for agitator and pump motors.  A VFD gives you variable speed and reversing capabilities and phase converters do not.    Our mash pumps and agitators come with VFD drives.  Here is something very important to consider when looking at stills:  Make sure that the still has an agitator that has a UL listed explosion proof motor.  A CE listed explosion proof motor does not meet US requirements, even the European made CE listed ones.  A dead give away that the motor is not UL listed is if it has a big EX on the motor's electrical enclosure.  Due to the fact that many times mash pumps are used inside the C1D2, we also put UL listed explosion proof motors on our mash pumps. We put them on our CIP pumps as well.  Also make sure that you have a good understanding of the class 1 division 2 hazardous environment, including the size and requirements of that area around stills, when you are looking at potential spaces for your distillery.  Also, keep in mind that if you are going to store bulk ethanol in your distilleriary you will need to have a room with fire rated walls which is really expensive.  A way around that is to simply store bulk ethanol outdoors in a properly UL listed stainless vessel if possible.  We have those UL listed storage vessels in many different sizes.  Also make sure that all of the safety valves on the still have the proper ASME ratings.  The Chinese duel purpose pressure relief/vacuum relief safety valves are not up to code here in the US.  Also make sure that the company that you are buying your still from will supply you with complete specification sheets that will give the powers that be what they require and all of your contractors all of the information that they need for proper installation, as some vendors do not supply any of that kind of documentation.  If you would like a fire and safety drawing showing the C1D2 around stills with all pertinent codes imbedded in the drawing, just email me paul@distillery-equipment.com.  I'm also glad to send you a sample set of specification sheets which will give you a good idea of what you should expect from a distillery equipment vendor.

[Alex_Sor]

There is a solution to spend more instead of a 36 kW heater.
Its name is "vacuum distillation".

if you need details, I can tell you.

[Bolverk]

Thanks all. Vacuum distillation doesn't really fit they style I'm going for, but I appreciate the comments. 

[Alex_Sor]

You do not understand...

I'll try to explain it very simply.

1) if you do not have enough electrical power, then you need a solution that will allow you to attract power for heating without increasing the “consumption from the electric pole nearby.” I know how to do it. (Physics only, no Magic).
2) You get a unique opportunity to become the most advanced alcohol producer in your State and even in the USA. Media correspondents will come to you to interview you. You will have excursions from people to whom you will sell tickets (additional income).

But you want to put in "just another shiny tank"...
And abandon everything that I wrote above.
You choose to be "just another distilling company with a nice tank."
It's your choice.
🙂

[Bolverk]

Thanks, Alex,

I understand 

1. I don't have this problem yet... I'm just trying to get in front of it in case I do... you know what they say, failing to plan, is planning to fail.

2. I do see what you're saying, and i appreciate your advice, but vacuum just isn't where I want to go.... it's not my style, not part of my story, and historically, it wasn't used to create the product I want to make. I guess I'll be just another shiny tank distillery.

 

[Silk City Distillers]

If heating oil is available where you are, that may be an option for firing a steam boiler as well.  We were dealing with undersized gas lines/meters at the start, and it was just easier to throw an oil burner on the boiler and put a big Roth tank in the corner.  Far less expensive than electricity, and all the benefits of big steam.