Scrounge Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So I'm dealing with my county on health/environmental issues so I can get permits to build my distillery, and they have concern with me using my residential well for a commercial business. Pretty much impossible to turn a residential well into a commercial one. So that leaves me drilling a new well(20-30k), or proving my case that it shouldn't matter on account of all the boiling and distilling going on in the process, or trying to take it to a state level and HOPE I get the answer I'm looking for. Trying to prove my case right now as they seem to lump me in with what ever fits best in there eyes (food product), when trying to figure out what codes I should comply with. They have asked me to help them find examples of others that might be on a well? Anybody on a well out there? Is it a commercial well? This could be a major setback that wasn't in the budget. A good example for that thread about "do your best estimate, and then double it" for start up costs. Anyone have any real world experience with this one? In any state? I'm in CA. They've got me hiring a consultant for a waste water system. That one I saw coming. But not this. HELP? Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seventh son Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 We don't have a well or city water. I have water trucked in as needed to fill two large holding tanks - one for process/cleaning water and one for mash water. For cooling, we use a continuous loop system that goes through a cooling pond, but you could just as easily add a chiller. It is actually less costly than a well in the short run ($90 for 2000 gallons), but in the long run I think a well would be cheaper. Then again, I'm in the Midwest where water is abundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 7th is spot on there. We supply chillers and heat exchangers for this express purpose. I can send you a sample schematic. If you have a mash cooling load, be sure to make room for a water reservoir to take out the shock of the initial heat from the mash cooler. BTW, the cooling system would cost less than the well- pretty sure, but depends on the size chiller required. Good Luck. MIke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Thanks for the replies. Seventh son- I believe they are concerned with my mash water(would seem most logical?) but I did throw the idea out of having treated water brought in. Good to know that worked for you. A local municipal source said they'll sell me water at $5 per 1000g plus $35 per day I want to pump it. So that doesn't seem to bad except for expense of hauling? But shoot, I could buy a tank for back of my truck, or a water tender truck for that matter, and still be way better off than drilling a new well. At least initially. MG- You are definitely on my list of people to consult with once I get a greener light for GO! I figure ill need at least a small chiller set up for closed loop cooling of still/mash. I've got calls out to every state public health authority I could find a # for so hopefully ill get a definitive answer soon. Anyone else out there on a well or have another similar situation? Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philf34 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 We drilled a well for our still house we are building. Cost $5K total. Price depends on how deep you need to go. We went down 125 feet. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Hey philf. My current well is at about 300' , and I've only got about 5gpm. The well drillers here think they can get me better (10 or 20gpm) at around 500 to 600' Plus they want 2k for the casing and another 1k for the seal. Plus pipe, pump, pressure tank systems, and well house, it starts getting up there quick! Apparently here a "commercial" we'll has to be 12" bore and have 100' casing regardless of what we drilled through, cement sealed down the entire casing. Sanitary seal theyre calling it. Did your county have any concerns like that? Could I refer my county to your project? Don't wanna do that if there's a chance of ruffling the feathers for your project, but if they directly stated your well requirements and you aren't worried about I'd love to give my county some other reference point. Thanks. Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philf34 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 The village that I live in is small and no zoning laws. I live close to a river and we need to go into bedrock that we hit at 73 ft. The well is cased and price included running the the water lines, pump and holding tank. The county requirements were minimum 50 ft. Broome County. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Thanks philf! I wanna live in a "village"! On my every day, I live in a bubble. But apparently it's still permeable to my county rulings. Not so much a zoning issue. I'm fine there. It's just, ther saying a residential well isn't fit for a source of water for a commercial business. Thanks again. Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have no clue why they care about your mash water. Your going to mash a liquid. And then you're going to boil the alcohol off of it. Why does it have to be sanitary for them? Because even when you thin down your alcohol before you bottle at the alcohol will kill anything in the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Hey Dehner. We all know that, but I've got to get the county to see it that way. The state has replied that "since this water source doesn't serve 25 or more people, that its between me and my county official". So I'm gonna gather up as much published science to make my case and present the info, in hopes of them granting a "variance" to the rule. Got my fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 In Iowa we don't get inspected by the state food or health inspector. They leave it up to the ttb. Maybe see who the state food inspector is because they will trump the local guy. I wish you luck. Let me know if I can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 County said I could use my well!!! Just have to do water quality tests every 3 months. Sweet!!! Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Curious...you are putting in water treatment for the well water, no? If not, you can foul up the tubes on your condenser (if you are using a shell and tube), given the hardness of the Mid-west water. Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yes MG, I plan on installing a 4 part filter system like I already have serving my house off the same well. It goes like this. Big sock filter of whatever micron I want (I think I have a 20micron at the house), a magnesium cartridge iron removal system( back flushes itself every couple days), a ceramic calcium system( doesn't use salt to handle the calcium, pretty cool) and a charcoal finisher. Water at the sink in my house is approx 30 ppm after this system. And then RO available after that for diluting/proofing water and maybe even RO the mash water? Not sure if I really need to do the mash water? Might anyway just to ensure consistency as my water changes throughout the year. Mostly fluctuations of iron in the spring/early summer when there's a lot of water flowing in the ground. The systems I have are from APEC and have been running in me casa for 3 years now and are just showing signs of needing a media change out. Super excited over here! Time for test trenches for soil analysis for waste water removal, and then permits can happen. Woohoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mendodistilling Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 The seal that they put around the casing is deeper for a commercial well. I did this by accident, I asked the guys to drill me a well, then mentioned it was for a distillery and they suggested a deeper seal, so we did that. I think its 50' rather than 20'. SEEMS FUNNY. They want to make do this for others but not yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salishseaorganicliqueurs Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 We will be using the city water provided here, however, we will also be using a custom built activated carbon filtration system which will clean our water and remove any chemicals added by the city/state such as fluorine and chlorine and other things that generally don't go well in organic products. The entire system only costs about $300 and then the cost to replace the carbon which is maybe $50 a year depending on how heavily you are using the water line. Perhaps the city/state wouldn't have a problem with you using the well water if you filtered it adequately first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Iron is a toughie to get out of water and can cost more than all the rest put together...I remember the old iron ring in the sinks back on the farm, and this was in Upstate NY (Finger Lakes Area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hey Salish. Issue was just with a commercial operation running on a non commercial well. Commercial well has a "sanitary cap" and is drilled to a different diameter. All good though, I put my entire process down on paper for them, and once they understood, they said my well would be fine. I just have to submit water sample every 3 months for tests to third party lab "about 20$" . There looking for chloroforms mostly, if I spelled that right. Bacteria and the like. I was pretty happy with that outcome. MG- check out APEC water filters I vouch for there systems as they've been keeping my house water (off the same well) clean for 3 yrs now. And super friendly folks. In spring I have a considerable amount of iron in my water (its orange) and there system removes it great. I have a flat black sink in my kitchen with no ring or other deposits after 3 yrs. anyhow, I sure do love reading this forum while I perfect my circus act of jumping through hoops! Pulled permits to get started building, and I do see a light out on the horizon, and I think it's a reflection off my new copper beauty!!! Woooooo hooooooo! Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natrat Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I don't recommend using RO water for your mash. As a matter of fact, I'd treat it as little as possible, other than making sure it hits a killing temp before I use it...usually 185 (which is a good temp for strike in) for a little while is great. Hard water has it's own advantages, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrounge Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hey Natrat. I'm hoping not to have to RO my mash water, but my concern(with my particular water supply) will be getting the iron down to an acceptable level. From what I understand, iron can foul up ferments if to high of levels. Ill need RO for my diluting water anyway, so ill have to do some tests and see what my actual ppm of iron is after my initial filtering, and size my RO system accordingly. Any thoughts on exceptable levels of iron for ferments, anyone? Thanks. Scrounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natrat Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 The main concern of iron is the way that it affects the taste of beer. I'm not sure if it would carry over in a distillate. Typically, for beer anything over 0.3 ppm would raise red flags on a water assay. However, the iron shouldn't affect a fermentation in an adverse way unless you're way up into the 4-5 ppm range. Of more concern would be your zinc level (often in high iron waters)...it's all good, and metabolized by yeast up to 1 ppm, but excessive zinc can have a toxic effect on your viability. Very hard water with large amounts of calcium ions can help with your mash efficiencies, especially when running pre-cooked mashes like corn or rye. It's because calcium can heat-stabilize the alpha amylase enzyme to work in a wider temperature range, sometimes up to and over 73C. There is a lot of evidence that it helps beta amylase, glucanase, and protease activity as well. Magnesium is undesirable because it replaces calcium in many metabolic and chemical pathways (more reactive) and prevents benefits from calcium. Sort of like the way carbon monoxide works in humans. All the rest shouldn't affect your mash too much, and may help to give a grain spirit a distinctive flavor. I'd love to have well water available for distilling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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