Fourlix Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Pretty stuff, but I have to figure out how to do this with my MIG. It is what I have, and what I am going to use. TIG or MIG doesn't change the alloy, and you TIG guys are using Silicon Bronze, just trying to keep it out of the vapor trail. I think I need to find a MIG wire with no zinc or lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Whay dont you go for ss top to yours ss boiler and hemisfärisk so you have better space for "foam controll" and copper over that! This is an Old swedish insulated milktank that a have put on this hemisfärisk top and put in 3pc 5500watt/ 3,1watt cm2 ATEX/EX classified elekrtic heaters in the back straight in the mash..... Cheers from Sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 My CuSi3 that a can find here in Sweden to both Tig and to Mig… Have 3% Si=Kisel and 1%MG= Mangan and rest Copper…. Noting more…. http://www.meltolit.se/MIG-kopparbaslegerade.htm This is what a use and a always put all welds on the Outside so the welds have No waport contakt to the product….. Cheers from Sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have seen this 4” and bigger copper module before and they was made in Kina….. This is a Dangerous way to build a column…. Yeas… now you all wonder Whay a say this… Think… first you have a distilling plate with a thickness between 1,0mm-1,5mm that you need to have sealed/tight to both this ferrule … and If you don’t have that this liquid bed shall simply self drain to next level.. note god… the plate shall note work… And around/outside this distilling plate you have a sealing that shall seal both this ferrule against each other and the plate … Think what happen when both ferrule have 100% contact to the distilling plate and the sealing don’t have enough pressure on it to hold it 100% steam safe…. This is a Dangerous solution … and nothing for commercial use…. Only for hobby and testing different type of plate …. Cheers from a Legally user and manufacture in Sweden inside EU … The picture below is of one of our copper to stainless welds after polishing. 308 stainless rod was used. The root pass fill pass technique was used. And the weld was purged with argon on the back side so that no sugaring occurred. If you want to do it right then that is the way that it should be done. The weld on the outside of the pipe looks exactly the same. If it were our copper to copper or stainless to stainless weld you would never see the weld bead after polishing. ADEtigbeadoncoppertostainless.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 If you relly wan to made this type of connection Safe… then you have a bigger/thicker sealing that you put on the distilling plate in a cut track in the middle of the sealing … So the distilling plate is in the middle and have sealing on both side… then this is a good and Safe solution…. But then you need to made the edges of the ferrules thinner so the thicker gasket ( with the plate in the middle) fits ... more difficult than it's actually not ... Cheers from Sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Fourlix, I was in your boat about 4 years ago when I decided to start my distillery equipment business. I started the business with $1,000.00 I took that $1,000.00 and bought a low pressure steam boiler off ebay with it that i sold for $4,000 to a distillery. They got a great deal on the steam boiler. It had only been used for 1 year when I bought it so it was like new. It was a $15,000.00 boiler. Anyway, I had a wood products business then and I was doing the distillery thing on the side just to see what I could do with it. My family has distilled for many generations in the Great Smokey Mountains. My dad and grandfather both built stills and I have somewhat of a mechanical engineering background, plus I had always been fascinated with distilling and distilling equipment, so I have studied the subject for most of my life. Because of my father and grandfathers activities, I had a good grasp of basic still design by the time I was 8 or 9 years old. Anyway, When I started all that I had was a $500.00 Lincoln mig welder and some soldering equipment. The head sawyer at my sawmill had done allot of welding and sheet metal work so I did a cad drawing of a copper still with a traditional Turnip head and copper coil condenser like my grandfather would have built. I purchased the copper and it turned out pretty good. It was silver soldered. I sold a few of those copper stills and then someone ordered a still built from a stainless barrel with a stainless column and another stainless barrel for a condenser. the guy that built the copper stills could mig weld and arc weld great, however when i did the research, I discover exactly how sanitary welding should be done. Mig was not an option. Everywhere I looked it said the same thing. Sanitary welds are tig welded using argon sheilding gas and the welds should be purged on the back side with argon and everything should be ground done and polished so that no bacteria can get a foothold. I looked for hours and hours for several evenings after work for something to tell me that it was acceptable to mig weld it and I could not find anything that said that it was okay to do it that way, so I bought an $1800.00 portable Miller tig welder. The guy who built my copper stills spent hrs and hrs and hrs trying to learn to tig and he could never get it. So I hired a retired tig welder to do that work and man could this guy weld. He could do stainless to copper with copper rod or stainless rod and knew all of the tricks to purging parts in argon and purging vessels and pipe. I learned allot from him but he was reluctant to teach anyone else i wanted to hire. You see I can't weld at all, so he probably never really thought that he was teaching me anything, but he was teaching all of the important stuff that i could teach to anyone who could already weld a good bead. Anyway, I bought some more portable tig welding machines and i sent them home with guys that i trusted with videos and books and scrap and they learned to tig weld at home and that is how I hired my tig welders. After they were able to run the bead they learned the rest here in the shop. Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes. I would put a stainless top on that boiler. It does not cost much to have a sheet metal shop roll a cone for you I would weld a stainless tri clamp ferrule inin the top dead center of the cone and then i would build a stainless column and condenser. Put tabs and a removable stainless perf plate in the bottom of the column. Chop up a bunch of old copper tubing ino 1/2' lengths and fill the column with them above the perf plate. You can weld it up using 308 stainless wire in your mig. It won't be sanitary but it will be a much stronger and safer than the silicon bronze. You will have the strength and durability of stainless and you will have all of the benefits of copper and you will have saved yourself allot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I am going to have to differ with you about this harley. There are a whole lot of of other people on here that will disagree with you as well. Tri-clamp connections are good solid connections and they do not leak when properly tightened. My gaskets and plates are especially made so that the liquid bed does not self drain. Mine is not the only company that sells these. Still dragon has old more of them than anyone else and there are several other companies that sell them as well. Here is a link to the still dragon site. http://stilldragon.com/They are very succesfull. I am sure that there are several still dragon column owners on this list and thousands around the world. The proof is in the pudding my freind. People buy these columns and then they come back and buy more column sections and then they come back and buy bigger columns. They would not do that if they did not work right. I have equipment in over 100 legal distilleries in the US Canada, Mexico and Austrailia. How many legal distilleries have your equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 This is wery interesting thing to discuss becouse am the man behind the crystall dragon…. But a have Right in what a say… Think, try to do that all of you… then you all shall come to same conclusion that a have done and many others….. It is simply not a safe solution with a plate between this ferrule that can do so the sealing can leak… because the pressure is Note on the sealing but on the plate…. Think…. To get a Safe solution/sealing then you need to put the plate in the middle of the sealing and this give a little thicker sealing so you need to made the ferrule edge little thinner… Note a Big problem to get a Safe solution… Think and do it Right …. This is for Hobby use and to testing out different type of plates if you Note can garantie to 100% that it shall Note leak after a time…. And who can do that with this solution with the plate that can do so the sealing is leaking, becouise all pressure is on the plate.. note the sealing..…… Think again… What shall happen IF this bad/ week solution shall leak and you get a explosion….. What would happen if this faulty joint solution with the plate in between that can cause leaks alcohol steam resulting in an explosion ........ It can be Expensive....Think again... I hope that you have a good Insurance... becouse this can be expensive if som people get heart or die.....Who is responsible for this? You who are sellers of it, or the user? Think again……. I only try to get you to Think... becouse it is cheaper to do this Before then After anyting happens... End of this... becouse a have no profit on this... a only try to get you to Think...... Cheers from a Legally manufacture that Think and user inside EU with all of it,s laws…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I am a legal manufacturer in the USA. 20% of the equipment that I have sold was 100% manufactured right here in my shop. 100% of the equipment that I have sold was at least partially built here in my shop. I am sorry Harley, you are 100% mistaken. This is a proven design. We have sold 152 of these modular columns with no returns and no issues. Everyone that we sent out was tested at 12 PSI with no leaks. Also by slandering my products, still dragons products, Mile Hi's products http://www.milehidistilling.com/mile-hi-flute-distiller/ Moonshine distillers products http://moonshinedistiller.com/copper-bubble-plate-modular-still-tower you are breaking the rules. You are not allowed to slander vendors equipment here. So far you have stated that the equipment sold by at least 5 US vendors is dangerous and will not work properly even though the equipment is proven and being used in distilleries all over the world. All of our pro series equipment has the plates welded in with DHP copper rod. We have built columns up to 18" diameter here at my shop with welded in plates. Below is one of our pro series stills that was built both here and overseas. The copper top on this still is 1/4" thick. Check out those flanges. This still is jacketed so that grain in mashes can be distilled. You cannot distill grain in mashes with direct electric heat. I also sell the low pressure steam boilers that power my big stills. They have been built in the USA since 1951 and there are units that have been in use since the 1950s I was a Lumberjack for many years and I always preferred Husqvarna Chainsaws (made in Sweden) over Stihl Chainsaws (made in Germany). There have not been any good big timber cutting chain saws made in the US for many years. The Stihls will start faster in cold weather, but I always thought that the Husqvarnas lasted longer. The only other thing that I can think of that I have purchased that was made in Sweden is my sons Swedish Mauser rifle .It shoots pretty good but not as good as my 1903 Springfield rifle, but he also likes the Russian AK47 while I prefer the AR15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Good stuff guys, I can see where MIG stainless welds, unless they are ground, could be a bacterial issue. I can see MIG brazing, with grinding, would be okay IF I find the right wire, with no zinc or lead. I am building this for my own use, but I do plan on going legit, so the product has to be good. I also found copper to copper MIG wire from England, SIFMIG 985. Copper is just so much easier to fabricate than Stainless, as long as I can get the MIG working acceptably. TIG is just not in my wheelhouse, nor in my budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Fourlix, I think that you are on the right track. I apologize for getting off on the wrong foot. If you ever do decide to try tig here is a cheap little tig welder that does a decent job http://www.ebay.com/itm/200-AMP-DC-PULSE-TIG-ARC-MMA-INVERTER-WELDING-WELDER-MACHINE-/351612081213?hash=item51ddb6943d:m:mwQ4zSTTQlZKVXJVS5AX7hw A friend of mine bought one and he did a couple of stainless projects with it and it worked pretty good. It is less than $250.00 and it has pulse. It might be a good machine to start with if you ever decide to try it. if you ever need any stainless or copper pipe or fittings including all types of tri clamp fittings email me paul@distillery-equipment.com. We have about every size and type of tri clamp fittings imaginable including all sizes of copper triclamp ferrules. We also have copper and stainless sheet. Our prices are better than our competitors and the quality is excellent. Our Web site is http://distillery-equipment.com. Click on the catalog link in the upper left of the home page. The catalog is huge with lots of products for building stills and distillery equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 Thank you Southern Highlander. This has been a positive discussion, even if it didn't start out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I've had really good experience with the green Everlast welders. Amazing bang for your buck, 10 years ago a comparable Miller would have set you back near 2 grand. I've got a PowerTIG 160STH - 160 amp with trigger start and a foot pedal - It's not bad for the money. It's a bit light for heavy copper though, but for most light sanitary welding - piping, ferrules, sheet work, etc - it's right on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Jamesbedner You are right on about the everlast welders. I have 5 of the power I-Tig 200 everlast welders and 1 of the power I-tig 200T everlast welders as well as a Miller diversion Tig Welder. I purchased the first I-tig almost 4 years ago. It has been used 40hrs per week for almost 4 years and it is still running strong which why I buy a new one every time I hire a new welder. They cost less than $700.00 which is less than 25% of what a comparable Miller costs and they have pulse and they really do a great bead. The stainless bead in the pic that I posted was done with an ITig. The 200T is digital and you can set it as low as 2 amps. My best welder can weld 22 gauge stainless with it. They are made in China but they are made to last. I have a big Miller 3 phase 600 amp welder, that I bought used on ebay for dirt, that will weld the thickest copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Yeah I kick myself for not spending two hundred bucks more for the iTig, although you can play that game all the way up the model line. Though, I'd really love AC for occasional aluminum. I've only tried DCEP once and it was a waste of tungsten. Really though, the cost is so low now that even a garage warrior can pick up a great unit and lay down a good bead with some practice. We've got lots of ex-pharma welders out in these parts - those guys with 40+ years experience in process/sanitary welding have more in common with jewelers than with fabricators. Those guys make everything look easy. I have tremendous respect for those guys, even more so having tried to do it myself. 600 amps is absolutely nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Here is a quote A mentor told me ALL THE TIME...."If you have the time to do it, you have the time to do it right. Because you always have time to do it over." I love tig welders. Mig welders have there place to, especially pulse mig welders. But when going for a sanitary weld it's like taking a chainsaw to brain surgery. It just is not the right tool for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 Thanks for the recommendations, the Everlast welders look good, and it is really nice to know there is something out there that is affordable and doesn't suck. I was always really good with Oxy Acetylene, and have no experience with TIG. Many people have said that they are similar in technique. I have grown so comfortable with MIG over the years..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 That being said, there are pros and cons. Either way I am looking at a learning curve. MIG is a rocky path with lots of unknowns, TIG is tried and true, more money up front, and I have to question my own abilities. I would welcome a new skill, and new toys are always fun. I don't need the level of expertise I see on here, I only have to satisfy myself, grinder in hand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Fourlix, Tig is similar in technique to oxyacetylene welding. One of my welders arc welded for 20 years repairing heavy equipment with his uncle. He is a great arc welder but it took him a really long time to learn to tig. I hired this other guy who had been a tattoo artist. He had never welded anything in his life and he picked it up faster than anyone I have ever seen. He is one of my best welders. I think that it takes the guys with more arc welding experience longer to learn to tig because they have to unlearn so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Jamebednar, I agree 600 amps is nuts. I think that is why I got such a great deal on it. No body else wanted a 600 amp 3 phase welder. I doubt that we will ever need to turn it all of the way up. I think that one of the guys had it up to 350 or 400 amps on some 1/4" copper though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Everlast I-TIG 200 has pulse....Any reason to go to the 200T? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Pulse is nice on really thin stuff. It with distortion from the welding process and it helps prevent burn through. I love it, but I have never used that brand of welders. I use a Miller Dynasty 350 DX. You can fully program everything on this machine. Like the dig, % of peak, feq., pulse per % of time..... It get really complicated..... It is awesome. I have a couple of these. But they where about $13,000 each.....so ....... Normally we are welding on pipe and tubing around 30-75 amps. But when we weld on thick copper we crank it all the way up to 350amps. It is full power till we get started and then back off the power with the foot feed... You need the power and heat to get the copper and stainless flowing. Another important over looked thing is the grind on the tungsten. It is super important. Also the type of tangent use is ultra important too. I think if I was you I might try one of those "I-tigs" but I would make sure you enough power. You can always turn it down. You might think about just paying someone to do your welding for you. Then you can get it done now, and done correctly, instead of trying to do it blind. Also you life is or could be on the line. No need to TRY out your welding skills while boiler explosive vapors. Save money and time TOO! Look this quote up. It is my fav. "To much, or to little" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If you have access to a lot of electric power then you can by this old type of Miller AC/DC 300A and 500A tig welder ( Gold star) very cheap today… We have 2pc of the 300a and 1pc of the 500a version and they are very simple to work with and made very good welds even in 5mm copper….. Cheers from Sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourlix Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 I have a TIG welder friend that can help me, but he lives 200 miles away. There are local welders...but they don't have any more experience with this than I do. I have hired "local welders" on occasion, with dismal results. "If you want something done right...." I think I will take a multi pronged approach to this, but TIG is going to have a part in it, along with MIG, friends, and as much recycled equipment as I can find. It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work. Funky is okay with me. This isn't rocket science, which is too bad, 'cause I have a couple of rocket scientist friends....This is New Mexico after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 If you have access to a lot of electric power then you can by this old type of Miller AC/DC 300A and 500A tig welder ( Gold star) very cheap today… We have 2pc of the 300a and 1pc of the 500a version and they are very simple to work with and made very good welds even in 5mm copper….. Cheers from Sweden Man o man, Gold Star welders are built like a BRICK $HIT HOUSE!! They can hold a super super stable arc. With real copper core transformers those welders are about 1100lbs each. Yes you can find them cheap. They are great old welders. Only thing is if they break (the right part) it is scrap metal. There are no replacement part form them, unless you know a guy that can make his own parts. Great old welders tho. A great newer older welder that is good to is a "Dial Arc" a 350-400amp. Real good machine. I love miller products my self. I bleed blue I guess you could say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now