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Mash Tun not Heating

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This is what I have for all jackets glycol and steam are you saying this is incorrect

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On 1/18/2019 at 12:35 PM, Georgeous said:

Looks like Trump just struck a deal with them, stock market soaring upwards today

Silk,

 

You may have an issue with your pressure relief valves possibly 2 issues.  Number 1 if the pressure relief valves are for steam then they must be ASME section VIII.  Yours appear to be section IV which are good for your steam boiler but not for your steam jacket.  Here is a link to an apollo ASME section IV valve which is not for steam jackets http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/SS_13-100_200_1064.pdf  Here is a link to a section VIII which is required to be on steam jackets of pressure vessels and vessels that operate at less than 15 PSI.  These valves are required by law for steam jackets http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/19Series_SS1118.pdf3 I have seen a couple of ASME section VIII designs that look like section IV so you should check your PRVs for the steam jacket to make sure that they are section VIII and not section IV

The second issues is that steam PRVs MUST always be upright to function correctly.  Yours appear to be horizontal in the pics.  If you need section VIII valves let me know.  I am an Apollo dealer and I keep section VIII valves in stock for steam jacketed vessels up to 2000 gallons capacity.

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23 hours ago, Georgeous said:

This is what I have for all jackets glycol and steam are you saying this is incorrect

 

That is absolutely incorrect.  That stainless valve is a European design that the chinese stole years ago.  It is not an ASME section VIII PRV.  In fact it is has no ASME rating what so ever so it does not meet code.  For the steam jacket you need an ASME rated  section VIII pressure relief valve to be legal 

For the cooling jacket the Chinese knock off prv is absolutely incorrect.  You need a PRV for liquid for the cooling jacket.  Also you should be very very careful with that cooling jacket.  Depending on the inner wall thickness 30 psi of water pressure may cause the inner wall to give inward or the jacket to rupture.

Also you must have vacuum relief on the steam jacket or your steam jacket may implode.  Also if you leave the manway closed with no vacuum relief on the inner pot during cooling, BOOOM your mash tun will wad up like an aluminum beer can, being crushed by a big burly redneck like me.  That has happened to more than one Chinese inner pot because they do not normally know that they must put a vacuum relief valve on the inner pots of mash tuns with cooling jackets or coils.  Vacuum is a force of nature that could make you shit your pants when it occurs to your mash tun while you are standing beside it.  If you want to purchase the correct valves for your still and mash tun's steam jackets and inner pots email me paul@distillery-equipment.com  Also just so you know.  There is a chance that the non UL listed Chinese motors on your agitators will not pass inspection because they are not UL listed.  They must be UL listed for either class 1 div 2 or class 1 div 1 for the still. Depending on our your inspector he may let the CE listed motors slide or he may not because they are certainly not up to code standards.  If the one on your still pot is not CE EX then it could be very dangerous if your mechanical air seals for your agitators are out of adjustment and start leaking.  If the air seals are not leaking now they certainly will at some point when they go out of adjustment.  

 

 

If you had purchased from me you would have gotten American made PRVs and VRVs of the correct type for your steam jacket, cooling jacket and inner pots.  You would also have received a very comprehensive safety manual.  You would have recieved American made UL listed C1 D1 agitator motors.  You would have received VFD drives to give your agitators variable speed and reversing capabilities that you don't have. Also I would have sold you a mash tun with a viable crash cooling system for your mash.  Also i would have made sure that your vessels had the properly sized steam connections.   Also the heat up time on my steam heated mash tun would be 1 hr and the total crash cooling time would be 30 minutes.  My stills heat up time would be 1 hr or less and the run time for a stripping run is 2 to 3 hrs.  Also if your still has a bubble plate column it will probably flood or not function correctly unless the still is a DYE still.  Also all of my pro series vessels have insulation jackets.  Also my agitators are very low RPM with very large paddles.  If they gave you high rpm agitators with small impellers they do not work for corn mash or rye mash in the mash tun or still.

All of this being said and considering that time is money.  Do you really think that you saved money in the long run buying from the Chinese?  You may just be seeing the beginning of your issues.

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Just for info, Those supplied safety valves are combination over pressure relief as well as vacuum relief.  w.r.t over pressure relief their standard is generally 1 bar (~15 PSI) BUT I have seen some with lower values.  This is all to do with internal spring sizing.  That said, these are not calibrated valves and are at best approximate.

 

The big danger with these valves is that the vented product exits from the side ports and is a danger to anyone in close proximity.  The vent needs to be directed down to a safe area.

1601847325_pressurecumvaccumrelifvalve.thumb.jpg.40fcfda6aa2dd3a3115325ee4c9a4fea.jpgIMAG3582.thumb.jpg.100e4c8e5b282bde305219f75adade24.jpg

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Richard,

Those valves are really dangerous for the reason you said.  The Chinese sent me some samples in the beginning but I researched them and never used them.  They are inherently dangerous for most applications.  I started using the correct ASME PRVs made in the USA right from the start.  Also my safety manual states that all PRVs on our steam stills steam jacket, inner boiler and column must be plumbed into a drain, if at all possible or at the very least plumbed to within a couple of inches off the floor.    My safety manual states that if the PRVs are not plumbed in this fashion accidental Injury or death may occur!  The Chinese do not typically give any kind of safety guidance.

 

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If you have your steam guy coming in, try this as a last result / action ........ and only for testing to give you direction.

 

Using a SS flexible steam hose, connect steam supply to the connection where the pressure relief valve is on lower jacket.  If you heat up then as silk City mentioned, your problem was because of entrapped air.

 

Cheapest solution to everything and you can then still use upper jacket for cooling.

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This thread has gone way too long, so some random thoughts.

1. Try using the top jacket for heating, and the bottom for cooling.  It's highly likely that the corn was sitting on the very bottom of the tank, despite the mixer running, insulating the tank contents from the undersized bottom jacket.  The top jacket will not see the same kind of insulated blinding that the bottom would.  Undersized jackets work fine, they just take longer.  By reversing these, once you've gotten to the point of needing to cool, you'll have solids well into suspension with lower viscosity - so the tank should mix better.  Honestly, at start up, I bet that mixer is just pushing the corn around on the bottom.

2. My comments about replacing the incorrect plumbing the top jacket port MUST BE DONE, whatever the approach.  PRV, Vacuum Breaker, Air Vent, Gauge.  No Chinese stuff, get the appropriate parts from a reputable steam trim manufacturer (Armstrong, Spirax Sarco, etc etc).  Honestly, I'd replace the traps too, but that's just me.  PRV - Vented to Safety, Air Vent - Vented to Safety, Vacuum Breaker, Gauge - on every jacket - this means 2x for the mash tun.

3. Do not plumb both jackets for dual duty heating and cooling.  It's highly unlikely that this tank was built to handle the thermal stresses involved.  While it would probably work for a while, the continual thermal shock would eventually tear welds and deform the tank.  While you can reduce the risk by introducing tempering control to the jacket, we are talking about fairly complex systems here.

4. There is a possibility you can retrofit direct steam injection into the tun, and use the jackets for cooling.  This is what I do.  Keep in mind, this can be very stressful for your boiler, and it means no boiler additives - aka reduced boiler life.   The drawing has what looks like a bottom port into the kettle directly, this might work, or you could retrofit a steam line through the top dome down into the mash for an injector.  DSI is the most efficient and fastest form of heat transfer.

5. Throw those pretty poppet valves out.  The picture posted shows that they are 1.5 bar, that's 22 psi - so they are both questionable in quality and reliability, as well as being entirely useless at 22psi.

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On 1/19/2019 at 8:50 AM, Roger said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, and I have tried to help, but quite frankly it appears that you screwed up. You apparently decided not to avail yourselves of any known US based equipment providers and then decided to design a "new type" of mash tun. When it didn't work, you blamed the company that made it to your specs. Kind of like "the customer is always right, in reverse".

just curious, when you were making your decision did you even ask any legitimate still / mash tun suppliers about heating and cooling protocol and options ? Like "can I use the tun for both, and what would it look like ! Valves, pressure, surface area, time, etc....

Not to beat you up, as I always appreciate individuals who don't travel the MGP clone path, but I see on another string you don't even seem to grasp the Alpha / Beta / Temp protocol. You need to spend some money on consultation and education, or you are going to struggle for quite some time. 

As per Silk, put some vacuum breakers on that dog, lower the pressure relief valves, and turn down the pressure on your boiler a bit, before you kill someone.

prost 

 

 

Roger, 

you are making assumptions. When i sought out Zhenjiu Manufacturing i asked for a list of 10 distilleries or breweries in the USA that have bought their equipment. They sent me a list of 20 most in the USA but others across north and south america. Being fluent in English, Portuguese and Spanish i called every single one of them. I asked what they liked and did not like about the equipment and would they buy again. The things echoed by every one of them was price, quality and great customer service. 
i am not a still designer, we started with a 50 gallon copper moonshine still, very simple very straight forward. I originally was looking at Corson Distilling, i really liked their designs. I would have bought from corson however i would have been one of those waiting for equipment to arrive as they seem to have issues with promised delivery dates. I did not ask Zhenjiu to make any special modifications i just merely pointed them to what i was looking for and they presented me the corson like system. I asked about cooling and heating and this is what they gave me. 

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also they assured me both jackets could be used for heating and cooling

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2 hours ago, Georgeous said:

 I originally was looking at Corson Distilling, i really liked their designs. 

   Corson had some of the worst designed stills ever built.  Time lines were not their only problem.  They had major functionality and safety issues.  In fact the manway blew off of one of their stills killing 2 cats and injuring the distillery owner who was very lucky that he did not get hurt worse or killed.  Also some people never received their equipment after paying down payments of over $100,000.00 and they never received their money back.   I sold equipment to several people that they screwed and helped several others solve serious issues. 

   Tory Corson called my office and cussed me and would not stop calling no matter how many times I hung up on him.  He tied my phone system up for over an hour.  He had his attorney send me letters threatening to sue me and I said bring it on, but they never followed through because in the end of course they would have lost, because everything I said about them was true.  I don't think they are still in business, but I'm not sure. 

Your still and mash tuns both have safety issues.  I suggest that you fix those safety issues as soon as possible in the ways that some of us have suggested.  If you do not get your ASME PRVs and VRVs from me get them from someone else.  Also make sure that they are of the proper capacity in lbs of steam per hr and that you have the correct ASME ratings.  If you need help with that let me know and I will help get you lined out.  This really is something you should fix.  Since your safety devices are not up to code you could be shut down.  Also if you are going to have tours your customers could be badly injured.  If you want I can email you a copy of my safety manual at least that way you will have some safety guidance. 

We have a  line of stills called our Signature series that have more of a German look if that is what someone is after.  We have them in many different configurations.  Please see the pics below. We now have equipment in over 300 distilleries in the US alone and we have over 300 references.

For anyone buying stills directly from the Chinese, have a heart and please consider that you are buying stolen intellectual property and that it could have been stolen from an American company like mine.  

P9190106.JPG

P9190104.thumb.JPG.e37fb2ef85b67574147ea9d484b154de.JPG

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1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

 

 

   Corson had some of the worst designed stills ever built.  Time lines were not their only problem.  They had major functionality and safety issues.  In fact the manway blew off of one of their stills killing 2 cats and injuring the distillery owner who was very lucky that he did not get hurt worse or killed.  Also some people never received their equipment after paying down payments of over $100,000.00 and they never received their money back.   I sold equipment to several people that they screwed and helped several others solve serious issues. 

   Tory Corson called my office and cussed me and would not stop calling no matter how many times I hung up on him.  He tied my phone system up for over an hour.  He had his attorney send me letters threatening to sue me and I said bring it on, but they never followed through because in the end of course they would have lost, because everything I said about them was true.  I don't think they are still in business, but I'm not sure. 

Your still and mash tuns both have safety issues.  I suggest that you fix those safety issues as soon as possible in the ways that some of us have suggested.  If you do not get your ASME PRVs and VRVs from me get them from someone else.  Also make sure that they are of the proper capacity in lbs of steam per hr and that you have the correct ASME ratings.  If you need help with that let me know and I will help get you lined out.  This really is something you should fix.  Since your safety devices are not up to code you could be shut down.  Also if you are going to have tours your customers could be badly injured.  If you want I can email you a copy of my safety manual at least that way you will have some safety guidance. 

We have a  line of stills called our Signature series that have more of a German look if that is what someone is after.  We have them in many different configurations.  Please see the pics below. We now have equipment in over 300 distilleries in the US alone and we have over 300 references.

For anyone buying stills directly from the Chinese, have a heart and please consider that you are buying stolen intellectual property and that it could have been stolen from an American company like mine.  

P9190106.JPG

P9190104.thumb.JPG.e37fb2ef85b67574147ea9d484b154de.JPG

 

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So the Chinese factory responded to me. Just like what they said to me in past many customers run both through their jacket cold and steam. 

 

 

Dear George ,

Pls kindly check my answers below:
1.Making the jacket of the straight side be swappable for steam and cooling,use two way valve to control.
   When heating is required, the bottom and straight sides are heated by steam to reach the required temperature for mash.

   Next, if you need to cool down, you can close the steam valve on the straight side, empty the interlayer of steam, and pay attention to the temperature in the tank.

   If the temperature drop is not low enough, You can then switch valves,so that the straight jacket can cooled by cooling water.
 
2.The jacket can withstand cold and steam.
   It is important to note that if the cooling water is switched on when there still has steam in the interlayer, the cooling water cannot be connected until the steam in the interlayer is exhausted first.And vice versa.
 
3.Elbow like this: three;Match the clamp and sealing ring;4*1.5 inch butterfly valves,is that all?
  If so, please pay for the cost of the valve, and we will provide the pipe and quick-install clamp for free.(Not including freight charge).
  Note that the bottom, like in the picture, can be connected like this:
 image.png.390e0dd92a4faa8db358635762faaa46.png
 
4.As to the mash tun is not heated up:
   1.The heating area of the bottom steam interlayer is relatively small.
      As we mentioned above,can make the straight side through steam to solve this problem.
    2.What is your inlet steam pressure?Can appropriately increase the steam pressure (less than or equal to 0.3MPA)
 
 

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:28 PM, richard1 said:

Just for info, Those supplied safety valves are combination over pressure relief as well as vacuum relief.  w.r.t over pressure relief their standard is generally 1 bar (~15 PSI) BUT I have seen some with lower values.  This is all to do with internal spring sizing.  That said, these are not calibrated valves and are at best approximate.

 

The big danger with these valves is that the vented product exits from the side ports and is a danger to anyone in close proximity.  The vent needs to be directed down to a safe area.

1601847325_pressurecumvaccumrelifvalve.thumb.jpg.40fcfda6aa2dd3a3115325ee4c9a4fea.jpgIMAG3582.thumb.jpg.100e4c8e5b282bde305219f75adade24.jpg

Here is what i dont understand, color me ignorant if you must

My steam boiler is low pressure 15hp/15psi. Its operational pressure is set at 13.5psi. According to the chinese the reason they give a 1.5 bar is that is the upper limit of the jackets structural integrity. Now my boiler does not put out above 15psi, with that 1.5 bar release it will never produce enough pressure to set that off. As a matter of fact, while it was fully under pressure i removed it wearing a welders gloves. without the triclamp i held it in place when i pulled it off steam shot straight up bout 10 ft till jacket was empty. Now i know that was ignorant to do, but i was not hurt. i just don't understand how 15psi boiler can possibly set off this relief valve. BTW the boiler has all kinds of safety features itself, that dont let it go over 15psi either. Also when all this was connected i had to get boiler inspector out here and i got my cert which has to hang on wall next to boiler. Only thing inspector gave me grief about was my vent hood but turned out it was up to code. he was use to higher pressure systems and what hey required. i will look in to replacing these i want to be safe. Hey if you are reading paul i got two on my still and two on my mash tun let me know what i need and give me a quote. 

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Tim,

 

The yellow tag on the valve that says do not remove will tell you if it is a section VIII for steam.  The valve for the inner boiler is not required by law but you should have one there.  I put section IV valves on the inner boiler and on baine marie jackets as a redundant safety feature.  If you don't have the yellow tags email me a picture of the plates on your valves and i will check them for you.

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14 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Tim,

 

The yellow tag on the valve that says do not remove will tell you if it is a section VIII for steam.  The valve for the inner boiler is not required by law but you should have one there.  I put section IV valves on the inner boiler and on baine marie jackets as a redundant safety feature.  If you don't have the yellow tags email me a picture of the plates on your valves and i will check them for you.

Paul, are you talking about the valves on the boiler or on the mash tun? and which valves. Also boiler guys are there today to plumb the 2nd jacket 

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1 hour ago, Georgeous said:

Paul, are you talking about the valves on the boiler or on the mash tun? and which valves. Also boiler guys are there today to plumb the 2nd jacket 

I was talking to Tim who asked how to tell what valves he has.  i need to know the size of your still pot and mash tun in gallons to spec the correct pressure relief valves for you.  The ASME section VIII PRVs are required for steam jackets.  I don't know how your inspector missed that.

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1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

I was talking to Tim who asked how to tell what valves he has.  i need to know the size of your still pot and mash tun in gallons to spec the correct pressure relief valves for you.  The ASME section VIII PRVs are required for steam jackets.  I don't know how your inspector missed that.

both are 600 gallons

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Boiler guys left, they plumbed the upper jacket we get even heat all the way around it now. Each jacket has separate steam trap. We are going to fill it with water tomorrow and see how long to a boil. He created us a bypass so we can run cooling water or steam through upper jacket. Lower jacket is just for steam. 

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17 hours ago, Georgeous said:

both are 600 gallons

I suggest the 19KGGL15 for the steam jackets.  They give you a little extra capacity. http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/19Series_SS1118.pdf

For the inner pot I suggest the model 13213 in 5 psi http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/SS_13-100_200_1064.pdf

 

We have them in stock.  If you would like some pricing email me paul@distillery-equipment.com 

 

 

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On 1/21/2019 at 4:52 PM, Georgeous said:

Boiler guys left, they plumbed the upper jacket we get even heat all the way around it now. Each jacket has separate steam trap. We are going to fill it with water tomorrow and see how long to a boil. He created us a bypass so we can run cooling water or steam through upper jacket. Lower jacket is just for steam. 

fired it up today full of water and got to a rolling boil from 60°F in around an hour. Crazy what a difference this makes. i appreciate everyone's advice and help 

thanks a million

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7 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

I suggest the 19KGGL15 for the steam jackets.  They give you a little extra capacity. http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/19Series_SS1118.pdf

For the inner pot I suggest the model 13213 in 5 psi http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/documents/SS_13-100_200_1064.pdf

 

We have them in stock.  If you would like some pricing email me paul@distillery-equipment.com 

 

 

paul, 

i am a turnip farmer when it comes to these things. explain what you mean for inner pot? Are we talking still or mash tun or both? 

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ok for inner pot you mean the one on top of the still right? and for jacket the ones on the side. mine are all fitted with TC connections 1.5" these you show are npt

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