clearwaterbrewer

Kckadi - In the same boat as you regarding sprinklers, we want to keep our day jobs and start off under the limits mentioned above, and then go to a 250-500g Vendome/Kothe (and sprinklers) once we have product sold (and, more importantly, at that point, can start expensing against our regular incomes) but fire marshal is currently insisting on 'high-hazard' with or without sprinklers, which means no tours or tasting room in the same area as the distilling equipment... We own the building (in a high traffic area like yours, 3880ft), and are trying to politely get the OH2 occupancy that NFPA directly states... here is the latest attempt at showing them the codes to counter their statement: "This operation is classified as high hazard occupancy per LSC101 due to the type of commodities produced and stored. (Flammable liquids) See LSC101 Ch 3.3.178.8.2, A3.3.178.8.2": Our response: NFPA 101 LSC Section 6.2.2 "Classification of Hazard Contents" - identical nomenclature is used to that in NFPA 13 regarding occupancies. NFPA 101 LSC 6.22.3 "Ordinary Hazard Contents" - "ordinary hazard contents shall be classified as those that are likely to burn with moderate rapidity or to give off a considerable volume of smoke. - this describes the product we will be dealing with.. The NFPA 101 LSC references the NFPA 13 in section 2.2 - While the NFPA 13 document does address sprinklers, it does address many other things, like stacking of tires and cartons, packaging that is less fire prone, etc. NFPA 13 Section 5.3 is clearly titled "Classification of Occupancies and Commodities" so it does, in fact deal directly with occupancies. Furthermore, the document uses the word 'occupancy' in reference to the exact same hazard levels as the LSC, (General, Low, Ordinary, and High). NFPA 13 5.3.2.1 defines Ordinary Hazard(group 2) as "where the quantity and combustibility of contents are moderate to high" - this describes the product we are dealing with. NFPA 13 Annex A is 'Explanatory material", which means that it is uses to explain things, and one would think that this is when a discrepancy or question arises, such as we have here, one would go to here to clear it up.. In the beginning of the annex, it states that this explanatory material in not actually part of the code, but is there to help explain. NFPA 13 A.5.3.2 specifically calls a distillery an OH-2 occupancy. I am extremely confident that these documents classify a distillery as an Ordinary Hazard(group2) occupancy. If it can be shown where a "Distillery" is referenced specifically as a High Hazard occupancy, we will agree. We are confident that this does not exist, and we are providing where it is specifically, by name, is an Ordinary hazard(group 2) Occupancy.

Another building is not really an option, since we own it, and it is in the ideal location with tourism, foot traffic, proximity to 2 breweries, building height etc... people come up to us nearly every day and say what a great location it will be.. To be honest, not building the distillery and keeping it as a workshop to store tools and toys is actually more feasible... Just amazes me that we live in a society that someone is scared enough of being sued (my assumption) to not do work that would be inspected and certified by the city..

Coop, ethanol is 100% miscible... you have to add enough water to get it to below 20%... 10 gallons of 40% needs 10 gallons of water and it is no longer a fire hazard... read this http://distilling.com/PDF/fires.pptx Jedd, if it passes inspection, the insurance company is happy, like I said I have done gas lines and passed inspection the fists time, and a gas line has similar sizing rules, permitting rules, and way more damage potential a dripping sprinkler joint is not only visible, it won't blow up your building)...... Finally. the cost of a single is more than I expect to make my first full year or two in business... overspending on startup is an easy way to go under in a business.. same reason I am not starting off with a $250,000 distilling system...

Anyone ever install their own? I mean, if you are capable enough of making good whiskey, and you have played with tinker toys and have installed a couple lawn sprinklers and plumbed natural gas to code and gotten approval the first time out, it is not rocket science, right? (especially if it is just a small system fed by domestic water within a 2 hour wall) Would I trust my life and my business to it? You bet! Much more so than the work of a disinterested party! I think I will have as much expense, time and experienced effort and licensing in a few 5-gallon barrels of whiskey as they do for installing a couple dozen sprinkler heads and piping them... and I am not getting $50-75k for my effort... We all know it is more important to watch your distilling system than it is to have a sprinkler system (that will do NOTHING to stop 'explosions') Yes, I am just ranting... lets see what the others that are quoting my 'warehouse space' or 'brewery' come back with... Thanks for letting me rant!

No way they knew if there was water or not, but I am in 'Downtown Core' so it should not be far to get the water, I gave him type of building and square footage glad that company was 30 miles away, so the closest company had not responded, therefore had not heard me use the D word yet, and they won't... I will use the W word, warehouse... Thanks John, however http://www.sprinklertechnologydesign.com/ doesn't do FL yet...

some things worth reading and possibly trying... http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/22566/how-to-preserve-the-green-colour-of-mint-when-doing-spherification

I was just getting quotes in case it came down to not being able to convince the fire marshal that the codes show that I am F1, OH2, and my low quantities will not put me into H or 'extra hazard' that require sprinklers for phase 1 of our distillery.. Not only did they say they were not interested they said they estimated it would be $50-75k to do it... WTF? Details: -40x70 free standing 2-story block building -3880 finished square feet, 1700 of mezzanine that some of which will be used as barrel storage, all 2nd story office/mezzanine is concrete over steel -Total of about 5500 square feet. -No other occupant. -We own it. -60 gallon stripping still -15 gallon spirit still -expect to store a few hundred gallons in barrels I know some have written here before about the 'small cost of $3-4/ft is worth it', but I fail to see that applying in my case... I have other requests out, and I guess I will have to lie about the intended use of the building... (edit: it was http://www.waynefire.com, and they have several locations, they appear not to be a small company)

I know this thread has been out there for a while, I saw it while prepping for my first meeting with the Fire Marshal next week. I am having trouble wrapping my head around making everything explosion-proof for a new craft distillery when humanity survived for several thousand years with open-fired stills... and there are ones still in existence and new ones being put in service.. I cannot help but think that a system properly designed and monitored should never let ethanol vapors of any dangerous level out into the open, for both profit and safety's sake... Don't get me wrong, I believe in safety, but something just does not seem right making an artisan craft distillery look like a petroleum refinery when your business is partly based on the visual aspect of the craft......

What I thought was a great article on barrel inspection, authored by Henry Work of Canton Cooperage http://www.practicalwinery.com/mayjun02p68.htm Now the questions... I have seen new 5-gal barrels that sat a while before filling almost fall apart, I am assuming the dried and got loose... they sealed after manipulating, but the staves had moved, making it not physically attractive.. I am in FL, and we are not known for our low humidity! Do all barrels get water tested at factory? Just something to ask the cooper? How long can I expect some of them to be able to sit and not have problems if I make an order?

Yours was one of the ones we visited in October, around GABF time. It was very nice and we enjoyed the tour, so much that we are going to steal one of your ideas, we are going to use my future father-in-law to be the tour guide ;-) In the other distilleries, however, we did like the ability to view the equipment while tasting... so I guess we will research legal partitions to balance the ambiance and the law...

I swear I saw something somewhere that had a requirement for you to submit something proving you had local zoning and municipality approval, but I cannot find it now when filling out the DSP application. I have the state requirement wording that says "ZONING: Submit Zoning approval, if applicable." I have looked in the 3 'getting started' powerpoints sent by the TTB and everything else I can online... Anybody have a link or wording of what I need? The good news is that the local planning director and his staff are as excited as we are to get the distillery up and going! -mike

Hopefully, this will allow on-premise sales by a craft distillery. If you are in FL, let your Representative and the reps on the 'Business & Professional Regulation Subcommittee' know this is important to us! http://apps.lobbytools.com/pub/index.cfm?type=bills&id=35275

You are correct... 29.55 says when you set it up you must register it... not register it before... Which infers that you can buy one without having a DSP... as soon as you hook it up to a power source, you have to register it... and the below also implicitly states it... 27 CFR 19.75( says you need to supply the serial number to register(could be your serial number or manufacturers), and if it is your first registration, it is before getting your DSP issued, correct? not impossible, but difficult to get a serial number without owning it.. ( The serial number, kind, capacity, and intended use of each still in the plant. ..

Any update? How about Trybox new make "Rye Whiskey"? It says 'straight from the still' and 'Rye Whiskey' ont eh same label, no mention of aging in oak... http://www.binnys.com/spirits/Trybox_Series_Rye_New_Make_Whiskey_Straight_from_the_Still_by_Heaven_Hill_31661.html

I for one would like to see some small guys do some side-by side releases of on-grain vs. off-grain.... It could be a specially dedicated series, or just two brands under the same house that the 'in-crowd' knows are the comparison... obviously, the best guys to do this have the right capability to do both well... Curious, how did old folks with fire keep the corn from scorching, low fire and thick copper? I can't see them having a false bottom..... did the rise of steam power change things?

Hey Lee, are you the one over by three palms brewing? Make sure to get a hold of Randy over there in case he has any beer that does not make it to production... Hope to have our distillery in Dunedin fully open this year, we will be out in Denver...

I have seen someone use a 5-gal cornelius keg full of carbon, plumb it to sprinkle over the top and draw from the dip tube... that could be the 5-gal pressure tank... I have also seen someone use a 3" tri-clover spool 24" long with mesh gaskets at each end and just recirculate the several hundred gallons through it continuously for x number of hours... then finish with a .45 or .22 micron filter to polish...

half of the distilleries I toured in Colorado had no physical separation such as a door or a wall... when I asked where their bonded area was, they said the whole building was bonded area...

Following up, the LLC for owning the building - the EIN application question was answered 'no', and the one for the distillery LLC was answered 'yes', and I did not hear a peep from anyone about either.

Legibility is marginal.... For a book written with a 10 year old copyright, any proceeds from the purchase are pure gravy for the publisher and author, and they should be ashamed at passing what I received off as a reference book... I have a paperback version of 'the Bartender's Gin Compendium' that I spent 10 bucks on that has far superior legibility... Can I read it? Yes. Can I focus on the content and not straining my eyes? No... I printed off the Amazon return label and boxed it up just now, I will contact some used sellers to see if their version is this 'digital' version...

I just bought the 'Whisky: Technology, Production and Marketing' book in hardcover from Amazon and spent over $150. The thing looks like a Chinese photocopy knockoff once you open the cover.... all the large type wording is noticeably pixelated, and the text is better, but not what I would expect from a textbook-priced book! On the copyright page, it says "Transferred to Digital Print on Demand 2010"... I feel like just got screwed... any thoughts? Should I just send it back? -mike

Anyone's thoughts on the two filters on this mcmaster-carr page? http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-filter-cartridges/=jxo984 looking at the Polyethersulfone 10" double open ended filters 43765K14 (.2 micron) and 43765K12 (.45 micron) anyone have a good price distributor for millipore? The quote I got for 2 filters (KPHLA10TT1 and KVGLA10TT1) was $700... eeeek.. -mike

Will these suffice? http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/BATTALION-Keyed-Padlock-1XRV5 They use the word 'key control' on this page, however on the catalog page, they say key-retaining. "Battalion™ padlocks are key retaining and have stainless steel bodies to provide enhanced corrosion resistance." -mike

Located a bit too far (Florida), however wanted to offer... As an accomplished brewer and BJCP beer judge, I am a little confused on the terms of manufacture of 'Single Malt'... reading "§ 5.22 The standards of identity.", I do not see what I assumed would be there, that is, a requirement for only containing a single, individual type of malt... if it is 90% of one type of barley malt, and 10% of another type of barley malt, it is still 'single malt'??? Additionally, I look on here, but see not article on how to choose the manufacturer, type, or specs for ordering new barrels, I guess it is wanting to take a shortcut, as I know if I read a lot of the books that are on my 'must read list', but does anyone have a link to a 'barrel selection for dummies?' ( I know what the sizes, species of oak, regionality of american oak, and toast/char are, but selecting one and selecting a cooper is a bit daunting... I could cheat and copy what I see Wiki has for Stranahan's, "then aged in 50 gallon heavily charred (#4 char), American white oak whiskey barrels made by World Cooperage in Lebeanon, Missouri." (and oc course when ordering from world cooperage, there is no #4 char to be found... LOL (I do not have DSP yet, have contract on bulding, expecting to be built out small scale and complete DSP in 2013) Mike www.cothermandistilling.com

yup, touring stranahan's in '05 is what got my interest peaked... I think my thoughts were.. "that's all it takes to make something that tastes like this????"... Note, if you are doing it intentionally, like they did, you do nto use hops... and you don't need to boil, heck, you don't need to lauter or sparge.... and you want to mash at low temps... so it is all about the grain bill.......