Jonathan Forester

There is a lot of lingo in this bizz. To make things easy, do like I suggested. Stop by or call Robert and Andrew at Philadelphia Distilling and talk to them. They know about every aspect of what you plan and may be willing to sit down and explain everything. Local and state laws differ, in some states infusing is as illegal as distilling. Some states allow you to be the distributor, others you have to hire a company, and others it is the sate. Some states you can be your own PR and Brand Rep or Ambassador, and others you have to hire them. I don't know PA's laws, just NY and Maine; and each of those two states were very different.

I agree with Gwydion. Stop by or call Robert and Andrew at Philadelphia Distilling and talk to them.

There are no rules or regulations on this.

Cheryl- I am pretty sure that law was passed just recently. The advisory is dated 2010-1, which I think means the first advisory note of 2010.

Actually I mis-spoke, I use dry and fresh from White Labs and others. Depends upon what I am making.

Cheryl, I read about that when it first came out awhile ago. I don't know how that regulation came about, or if it is being inforced. BUT, I know that it hasn't stopped anyone yet. I know of literally hundreds of folks who are getting sample bottles of spirits given to them, and dozens of companies giving away samples, both to on and off premise, and consumers.

Unless you have a person who's full time job is yeast management, it's a pain to propagate your yeast. We tried it in several forms at my old winery/brewery/distillery, and after awhile said the hell with it. Actually came out cheaper because of the time involved, to use dry. The consistency is the key thing.

I'm going to be maintaining this list, and deleting all but the latest of these posts to keep the thread shorter. Here's an easy way to sign on. Just add your company's name, city and state to the list below and re-post. 1. Modern Spirits LLC, Monrovia, CA 2. Colorado Gold LLC, Cedaredge, CO 3. Tuthilltown Spirits, Gardiner, NY 4. Dry Fly Distilling, Spokane, WA 5. Ellensburg Distillery LLC Ellensburg, WA 6. Dynamic Alembic Artisan Distillers, Mattawa, WA 7. Great Lakes Distillery LLC, Milwaukee, WI 8. Drum Circle Distilling, Sarasota, FL 9. Grand Traverse Distillery, Traverse City, MI 10. Mystic Mountain Distillery, Larkspur, CO 11. Pacific Distillery LLC, Woodinville, WA 12. Delaware Phoenix Distillery, Walton, NY 13. Heartland Distillers, Fishers, IN 14. Fat Dog Spirits, Tampa, FL 15. Harvest Spirits LLC, Valatie, NY 16. Cascade Peak Spirits, Ashland, OR 17. New Holland Brewing Co. and Artisan Spirits, Holland, MI 18. Newport Distilling Company, Newport, RI 19. 45th Parallel Spirits LLC. New Richmond, WI 20. Gnostalgic Spirits, Ltd., Seattle, WA 21. Blackwater Distilling Inc., Annapolis, MD 22. RoughStock Distillery, Bozeman, MT 23. The Solas Distillery, Omaha, NE 24. Parched Group LLC, Richmond, VA 25. AEppelTreow Winery, Burlington, WI 26. Leopold Bros. Small Batch Distillers, Denver, CO 27. The American Distilling Institute 28. The Brewers of Indiana Guild 29. Sweetgrass Farm Winery & Distillery, Union, ME 30. Downslope Distilling Inc., Littleton, CO 31. North Shore Distillery LLC, Lake Bluff, IL 32. Finger Lakes Distilling LLC, Burdett, NY 33. St. George Spirits Inc., Alameda, CA 34. Philadelphia Distilling, Philadelphia, PA 35. Distillery 209, San Francisco, CA 36. Peak Spirits, Hotchkiss, CO 37. Maine Distilleries, Freeport, ME 38. Clear Creek Distillery, Portland, OR 39. Ryan & Wood Inc, Gloucester, MA 40. Artisan Spirits, Portland, OR 41. Bendistillery, Bend, OR 42. Brandy Peak Distillery, Brookings, OR 43. Dolmen Distillery, McMinnville, OR 44. Highball Distillery, Portland, OR 45. House Spirits, Portland, OR 46. Indio Spirits, Tigard, OR 47. Integrity Spirits, Portland, OR 48. Northwest Distillery Inc, Warren, OR 49. McMenamins Edgefield Distillery, Troutdale, OR 50. New Deal Distillery, Portland, OR 51. Ransom Distillery, McMinnville, OR 52. Rogue Spirits, Portland, OR 53. Sub Rosa Spirits, Portland, OR 54. Integrity Spirits, Portland, OR 55. Wolf Bros Distillers, Rochester, NY 56. Titos Handmade Vodka, Austin, TX 57. Essential Spirits Alembic Distilleries, Mountain View, CA 58. Dutch's Spirits, Pine Plains, NY 59. Las Vegas Distillery LLC, Las Vegas, NV 60. River Town Distillers LLC, Snohomish, WA 61. Odyssey Beverage Group, Seattle, WA 62. Balcones Distilling, Waco, TX 63. Hawj Brother's Distillery, Yuba City, CA 64. Odyssey Beverage Group, Seattle, WA 65. Colorado Pure Distilling, Lakewood CO 66. Tombstone Spirits LLC, Southern Tempe, AZ 67. Sound Spirits, Seattle, WA 68. Garrison Brothers Distillery, Hye, TX 69. Mt St Helens Spirits LLC, Amboy WA 70. Flagler Spirits. Palm Coast, FL 71. Few Spirits, LLC, Evanston, IL 72. Entente Spirits, LLC, Baroda, MI 73. Railean Distillers, LLC, San Leon, TX 74. Kymar Farm Distillery, Charlotteville, NY 75. Rock Town Distillery, Little Rock, AR 76. Decotech, Englewood, NJ (Supplier) 77. Forward Brands Distillery, Phoenix, Az 78. Valley Spirits L.L.C., Modesto, CA 79. StilltheOne Distillery LLC, Port Chester, NY 80. Bare Distillery LLC, Anchorage, AK 81. Island Distillers Inc., Honolulu HI 82. Oakstone Spirits, Santa Barbara, CA 83. MB Roland Distillery, Inc, Pembroke, KY 84. Smooth Ambler Spirits, Maxwelton, WV 85. Florida Farm Distillers, Umatilla, FL 86. Flathead Distillers, Whitefish, MT 87. Spirit of Texas, Pflugerville, TX 88. Vermont Spirits Distilling Co., Quechee, VT 89. The Little Egg Farm and DIstillery, Stone Ridge, NY 90. Napa Valley Distillery, Napa, CA 91. Blue Star Distillery, Castle Park, MI 92. Bluewater Spirits LLC, Pensacola, FL 93. Ventura Limoncello Company, Ventura, CA 94. Wylie Howell Spirts, Walnut Creek, CA 95. Graham Barnes Distilling, Austin, TX 96. Double Diamond Distillery LLC dba Breckenridge Distillery, Breckenridge, CO 97.

can you post photos here?

I just got off the phone with Bill Owens and he said that he isn't aware of any actual artisanal distilleries in NJ. He said there may be some in the pipeline, but not that he is aware of. There are some DSP's registered in NJ, but they are rectifiers or bottlers, not actual small spirits producers/distillers. (By the way, Bill also told me that the national count of small distilleries is now up to 240!)

Scott, you may disagree, but it is the ADI forum...

Scott- remember this forum is basically part of ADI, and meant for members, or folks interested in becoming members.

please email me the specs and price. jmforester@dutchspirits.com

'Tirador', just to let you know, Ed is an active member of this forum and has been for a year longer than you. ("JarHead") Ed's story is unique, he didn't just buy a fancy still and start making 'hooch.' He had to sell his car to raise money to get started. He found a small and inexpensive warehouse unit in an industrial area, bought a very small still, and used stainless tanks, and then made several stills using stainless 55 gallon drums which he set up with electrical heaters, and Amphora Society PDA-2 and stripping columns. Then he spent a long time fermenting out local NY State honey and learning to make high quality spirits, including vodka, gin (made from the honey base, not NGS), and honey brandy. He is one of just 3-4 distilleries in the US using honey as his base product. I went and visited Ed right when he was about to open for business. I am not a vodka fan, but as a spirits expert and judge, I thought he was making excellent vodka; and he was working on a gin recipe that showed great promise. It could have gone on the market that day, but he tweaked the recipe for a long time. Within a few months of opening Ed had gotten rated with a '90' by the BTI for his vodka. That's pretty darn good and something to crow about. Then as sales increased and he needed a larger still, he didn't rush out and buy a Carl or Holstein, but had Jesse of Trident Welding, another active member here, make him a custom still to his specs. Then he sold his equipment to other starting distillers for a very low price, so they could have a chance to achieve their dream. Ed is NOT another Wall Street guy out of touch with reality. He is doing a labor of love, taking risks, etc. Now THAT is newsworthy and the story that should have been covered.

I just wanted to note that some of the best new grappas, made both here in the US, and Italy, are not using pomace, but are using whole skin wines. The quality of the few I tried are unbelievable, a huge increase in flavor, quality, smoothness, etc.

Inge Russels' book, Whisky: Production, Technology, and Marketing, is out of print, but is available used for slightly less than the original price, which was $165 I think. Here are some places selling it. I would jump on one of the used copies for $145 immediately. http://www.allbookstores.com/book/compare/0126692025 Nottingham University Publishers just came out with a new, revised and updated issue of 'The Alcohol Textbook.' http://www.nup.com/product-details.aspx?p=250 They also came out with a third volume in their Distilled Spirits series, and are selling the three volumes as a set as well. http://www.nup.com/product-details.aspx?p=303

Actually Scott, I think you do have to have a DSP (Distilled Spirits Producer) permit from TTB, the same as a distillery. Otherwise you can't work with alcohol or buy NGS. From the TTB "A distilled spirits plant (DSP) may be established to produce, bottle, rectify, process or store beverage spirits. Examples of beverage distilled spirits include neutral spirits or alcohol (i.e. vodka or grain spirits), whiskey, gin, brandy, blended applejack, rum, Tequila, cordials and liqueurs."

Ralph, my thoughts and prayers are with you and yours. Heal quickly. Jonathan

Hi everyone- This holiday weekend has been filled with joy, snow, and unfortunately, a lot of sadness... Ralph Erenzo, Master Distiller and Founder of Tuthilltown Distillery, was in a terrible car accident on Dec. 21st and remains in critical condition at St. Francis Hospital in Poughkeepsie, NY. The family is keeping an online wiki of his condition and you can also comment on it: http://rjerenzo.wikispaces.com/ Let's keep Ralph and the Tuthilltown family in our thoughts and prayers.

There's lots of folks doing this. I personally have friends with six different bitters businesses. You don't need to be a DSP to make bitters. You can buy 190 proof neutral spirits, but you have to pay the tax on it and then apply for a federal rebate to get that back after you have sold the bitters. One thing to consider, is the market for new bitters still growing? My friend Greg, who runs www.cocktailkingdom.com, a site that sells more types of bitters than anywhere else, currently carries 46+ types of bitters, up from 10 two years ago. And he doesn't carry the Bitter Truth line anymore, which is a good dozen more. And I know of more bitters businesses coming along within the next year, add another dozen types of bitters. Can you make a good enough product to compete with 70 bitters? Will you be able to get enough bars to carry your products? That's where the money is. Most home bitters buyers only go through a bottle a year or two. And bitters fanatics may have dozens, but they buy one once, and a few others 1-2 times a year. The money outlay for equipment, a facility, etc. isn't huge, but still it isn't petty cash. You can't make bitters commercially in a residence, major fire hazard. So you will need a real business plan, and start up a legitimate business, with proper zoning, permits, etc. But let's take a look at the profit potential: I am only running quick figures, and not including the botanicals, which are expensive! The botanicals for this one batch could be easily $5000 or much, much more. A 55 gallon drum of NGS runs from $300-700, delivered. But the tax on it is around $1400. If you are a licensed DSP able to buy in bond you don't pay the tax. So you are paying around $2000 per 55 gallon drum. Most bitters are sold at 30% abv. So when you take that 55 gallons of NGS, make your botanical tincture, reduce it to 30%, you end up with around 174 gallons of bitters. (Actually number will be less because of loss during botanical extraction.) Then when you put that, let's say 160 gallons of bitters, into 4 oz bottles, (32 bottles per gallon, so 5120 bottles of bitters) and sell them for $12 each (let's say $5 wholesale is what you will get), minus bottle cost, (let's say 50 cents per, $2560)You end up with around $21k profit, (not including the botanicals, your time, equipment, facility, etc.) and another $1400 in rebate at some unknown later time. I have friends who make bitters and they say getting the rebate is slow. (like months or years.) The profit looks good so far, but how much will your botanicals cost? Equipment, facility, employees? And you have to sell those 5120 bottles of bitters! So it is doable. But you have to figure out if it is doable for you.

I just went up to see Derek last week. He happened to be on baby duty with his newborn, so we ended up just hanging in the tasting room/distillery with his wife and staff, tasting dozens of experimental things.

I agree with you about diagramming the facility. I first started out with regular size graph paper and drew dozens of designs looking at work flow, equipment usage, etc. Then moved on to poster size drawings. As time went on the whole space morphed into what I now think will be a well designed facility, that is fluid and can change as needed, for different types of operations.

Happy Holidays to everyone from the Future Dutch's Spirits Farm Distillery in Pine Plains, NY and from the International Cocktail Expo Team. (Seoul-ICE, the first of a series of Annual International Cocktail and Spirit events coming to Seoul, Korea Nov. 4-6, 2011. Website www.Seoul-ICE.com coming soon.) Jonathan

Marc- Actually, none of the folks in this discussion are employees of ADI. Even us administrators. Bill Owens is ADI. With a select few of his staff. So this isn't ADI's position, but part of an ongoing discussion of distillers, who use this forum, and have talked in person over the past few years.