Jonathan Forester

I made a comment/asked some questions over on John's blog, adding to the whisky/whiskey discussion. It's waiting moderation there, but see below. Chuck- I'd like your feedback on my questions as well. http://www.whatdoesj...iance/#comments "John Hansell, Chuck Cowdery, and any other historians and experts- Maybe you can help me out on this. When did Scotland and Ireland start aging whisky in barrels on purpose? Presently they age their products in used Bourbon barrels predominantly, and have for awhile. But isn’t barrel aging whisky/whiskey a relatively new thing starting in the 1830’s to 1850’s, and didn’t become a matter of course until the 1870’s? Did barrel aging whisky start in the UK or the US? Or was it a fortuitous accident that happened in Europe and America at around the same time? I was under the impression that US Bourbon started barrel aging as a new style, sort of by accident, and that it caught on in Europe afterwards. If so, then the US set the standards for whiskey. Also when did Scotland move to the use of malted barley as the main ingredient in whisky? Isn’t that relatively recent? Before that wasn’t corn/maize the main grain used for a few hundred years? In addition, what was the main grain/s used in Scotland prior to corn? What about Ireland? Wasn’t it rye and maybe winter wheat? (I can’t access my library since most of it is packed away from my last move, and I’m waiting for my new distillery to open to set it up again. So I don;’t have access to my information.)

Ralph, maybe this should be reposted under a new topic for discussion about the disagreement between the US and the Eu about whiskey? Or is there a discussion already? I may have missed it. I made a comment/asked some questions over on John's blog, adding to the whisky/whiskey discussion. It's waiting moderation there, but see below. Chuck- I'd like your feedback on my questions as well. http://www.whatdoesjohnknow.com/2010/06/04/tuthilltown-spirits-and-william-grant-form-alliance/#comments "John Hansell, Chuck Cowdery, and any other historians and experts- Maybe you can help me out on this. When did Scotland and Ireland start aging whisky in barrels on purpose? Presently they age their products in used Bourbon barrels predominantly, and have for awhile. But isn’t barrel aging whisky/whiskey a relatively new thing starting in the 1830’s to 1850’s, and didn’t become a matter of course until the 1870’s? Did barrel aging whisky start in the UK or the US? Or was it a fortuitous accident that happened in Europe and America at around the same time? I was under the impression that US Bourbon started barrel aging as a new style, sort of by accident, and that it caught on in Europe afterwards. If so, then the US set the standards for whiskey. Also when did Scotland move to the use of malted barley as the main ingredient in whisky? Isn’t that relatively recent? Before that wasn’t corn/maize the main grain used for a few hundred years? In addition, what was the main grain/s used in Scotland prior to corn? What about Ireland? Wasn’t it rye and maybe winter wheat? (I can’t access my library since most of it is packed away from my last move, and I’m waiting for my new distillery to open to set it up again. So I don;’t have access to my information.) "

Different types of potatoes, different ways of cooking/steaming, etc. Different enzymes, yeast, fermentation processes, different types of stills, etc. will produce different yields. So having Chris at Cold River say 15lbs, and someone else say 9.5lbs, can both be correct.

I don't know anyone using powdered carbon. Only activated carbon granules, and I haven't seen it be that messy.

Wheat and Rye flour? That's probably the problem. It's ground too fine.

Ed, what address did you use?

Cheryl- This is an interesting topic and may have to be broken off to another post. What about enzyme use?

I think it depends upon what anti-foaming agent you use. They can be as simple as the old fashioned hunk of fatback. Or vegetable oil. In my 19th century style alembic/pot still I've used vegetable oil and it has worked very well. I think that's a valid anti-foaming agent. What are the commercial agents made of?

Guy- Actually, I tried to comment on the blog a few weeks ago, but it doesn't seem to be open to comments. You have to be a registered user, but I couldn't seem to find a way to register. Maybe Mr. Ludford can help us out with this? If anyone else has some comments to add here, please keep it fact based and as Guy requests, civil. Feel free to try to post fact based rebuttals on Mr. Ludfords site, if that is possible. I'm sure he wouldn't mind a plain discourse.

Yes, Bill has solid numbers on the amount of distilleries, and both the 2007 and 2010 numbers you state are low. In 2007 there were well over 100, and that number of 186 was accurate in fall 2008, and there are over 210 right now, with lots more on the way. The speed with which new distilleries are being built is increasing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are 250+ artisanal distilleries in North America by this time next year. Heck, four are opening this year in Brooklyn, NY alone, and I have been contacted in the past four months by seven planned distilleries, to consult to, or work with. if you want some numbers, give Bill a call. He will be glad to chat.

I got a newsletter with a link to this article a few weeks ago, and it has been bothering me. What do you think? White Whiskey & Other Mythical Creatures http://www.bevx.com/spirits/white_whiskey

I want to add that Goinbroke2 deleted the posts himself. Then I just cleared away the deleted posts a few minutes ago. The only time Admin deletes posts is if they are violent, an attack, insulting, or are about home distilling. the first two are rarely seen, the last is upon occasion. JMF

Thanks for posting all the info. I petitioned my complaint as well. JMF

I deleted this once and sent the person a message, to which they did not respond, so I deleted it again. No home distilling advice is appropriate on this site. this site is dedicated to learning about opening a distillery, and for advice for those in the process of getting their DSP or who have it. JMF

For those of you who are joining the council as artisanal distillers. Get in touch with Danielle Eddy. She is the Director of Public Relations and a good friend of mine. She told me that the artisanal distillers aren't taking advantage of the fact that she has a marketing budget to work with the artisanal distillers. She is in Asia right now, but will be back at the end of May. When she is back I will have her post info here as well. JMF

In the past I have used a traditional alembic pot still for making rum and gin, and if my old distillery had progressed I was going to make a wash and distill from that. The traditional stripping run, then spirits run. Now I am shopping for modern stills for my new distillery and I am getting lots of conflicting information. When using a modern still with 4-6 plates; can, and should, you make whiskey in one run, as opposed to a stripping run and a spirits run? Some still manufacturers are suggesting traditional stripping runs, then spirits runs. While others are saying just do one run. So, those of you out there with DSP's (as opposed to the home distillers who shouldn't be on this board) who are making whiskey commercially, what are your thoughts? How do you make whiskey, and why? thanks, Jonathan

Scott- Out of all the distilleries I've visited I don't remember ever seeing any type of spill containment. Has this guy ever inspected any other distilleries?

download the Fed permit from TTB Contact the state liquor authority and/or go to their site and download their permit. then read them and set up what steps YOU need to follow. We can't tell you this. At this point you have to do the foot work / research.

Hi There. To repeat what the others said. You need to slow down. You need to organize yourself. This is a multiple year process. Realize you are going to have to spend at least a year on research. Everyone and every distillery is different. If you are overwhelmed now, before you have even started your real research, you will crash and burn before you even know the realities of your situation. First you need to take that list you have up above and make all those points headlines. Eventually you need to contact all the agencies you mention and find out what each one requires. You need to start a business plan. It will start as a five page outline. Then as time progresses you will fill in each section, and start new sections. When done expect it to be 40-60 pages long. If you go into this halfway, it won't happen. If you go into this thinking it will happen in a year or so... it won't happen. Get several business plan outlines online and use them as starters. Buy all of Bill Owens books on distilling. They are rough guides to use as a starting place. If you can make it to the ADI conference next week, May 2-5, do so. Or else plan to next year. Buy every book on distilling you can find. Members here have put together lists. Visit distilleries. As many as you can. See what products they make. Why? What size are they? How many employees. Ask questions. Make friendships. Go back and visit again a few weeks/months later when you have new questions. Visit spirits shops and see what products they have. Which are selling well? Which aren't? Ask questions. If you can coherently ask questions here. one at a time, folks will help. Right now you are all over the place. So sit back and organize. Get pads of paper and put up sheets of paper on a wall. Have markers and start headlines, then fill them in. whenever you have a new area of inquiry, or an old one expands, start new sheets. Right now you are just gathering information. Then at some point it will all come together. You need to put down on paper why you want to open a distillery? What type of distillery? What type of products? Location? Size? Good Luck, JMForester

Cognac is only distilled from harvest in the fall until March 31st of the next year. So if you want to see cognac in progress you have to go during that time period. I can put you in touch with Cognac Ferrand if you want an in-depth tour since I am very friendly with them. When you are a few weeks from going, get in touch and I will set it up.

The writer is obviously a hack who didn't do any research. Which could have been done in 30 seconds. What shows how much of hack he is, was that he didn't even contact David Wondrich who is the Drinks Correspondent for Esquire magazine.

There are four levels of char, and I think there are three levels of toast. So a toasted barrel is not a charred barrel. Toasted means just that the barrel is toasted to a light brown, medium brown, or deep brown color on the inside. Char means the barrel is actually burned until charcoal forms on the inside of the barrel. The level means how deep the charcoal is. You can make a whiskey that is light in character and have it be a Malt Whiskey by aging it in a new barrel for a shorter period of time. Did you look at the TTB standards of defiinition of terms for varieties of whiskey? Unless I am mistaken, an American whiskey that is similar to a single malt scotch would be #2 “Whisky distilled from bourbon (rye, wheat, malt, or rye malt) mash” ( Class 2; whisky. “Whisky” is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80° proof, and also includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are prescribed. (1)(i) “Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type. (ii) “Corn whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 125° proof in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood; and also includes mixtures of such whisky. (iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs ((1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as “straight”; for example, “straight bourbon whisky”, “straight corn whisky”, and whisky conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraph ((1)(i) of this section, except that it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51 percent of any one type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in charred new oak containers shall be designated merely as “straight whisky”. No other whiskies may be designated “straight”. “Straight whisky” includes mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State. (2) “Whisky distilled from bourbon (rye, wheat, malt, or rye malt) mash” is whisky produced in the United States at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored in used oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type. Whisky conforming to the standard of identity for corn whisky must be designated corn whisky. (3) “Light whisky” is whisky produced in the United States at more than 160° proof, on or after January 26, 1968, and stored in used or uncharred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies. If “light whisky” is mixed with less than 20 percent of straight whisky on a proof gallon basis, the mixture shall be designated “blended light whisky” (light whisky—a blend). (4) “Blended whisky” (whisky—a blend) is a mixture which contains straight whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis, excluding alcohol derived from added harmless coloring, flavoring or blending materials, and, separately, or in combination, whisky or neutral spirits. A blended whisky containing not less than 51 percent on a proof gallon basis of one of the types of straight whisky shall be further designated by that specific type of straight whisky; for example, “blended rye whisky” (rye whisky—a blend). (5)(i) “A blend of straight whiskies” (blended straight whiskies) is a mixture of straight whiskies which does not conform to the standard of identify for “straight whisky.” Products so designated may contain harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials as set forth in 27 CFR 5.23(a). (ii) “A blend of straight whiskies” (blended straight whiskies) consisting entirely of one of the types of straight whisky, and not conforming to the standard for straight whisky, shall be further designated by that specific type of straight whisky; for example, “a blend of straight rye whiskies” (blended straight rye whiskies). “A blend of straight whiskies” consisting entirely of one of the types of straight whisky shall include straight whisky of the same type which was produced in the same State or by the same proprietor within the same State, provided that such whisky contains harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials as stated in 27 CFR 5.23(a). (iii) The harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials allowed under this section shall not include neutral spirits or alcohol in their original state. Neutral spirits or alcohol may only appear in a “blend of straight whiskies” or in a “blend of straight whiskies consisting entirely of one of the types of straight whisky” as a vehicle for recognized flavoring of blending material. (6) “Spirit whisky” is a mixture of neutral spirits and not less than 5 percent on a proof gallon basis of whisky, or straight whisky, or straight whisky and whisky, if the straight whisky component is less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis. (7) “Scotch whisky” is whisky which is a distinctive product of Scotland, manufactured in Scotland in compliance with the laws of the United Kingdom regulating the manufacture of Scotch whisky for consumption in the United Kingdom: Provided, That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is “blended Scotch whisky” (Scotch whisky—a blend). (8) “Irish whisky” is whisky which is a distinctive product of Ireland, manufactured either in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland, in compliance with their laws regulating the manufacture of Irish whisky for home consumption: Provided, That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is “blended Irish whisky” (Irish whisky—a blend).

Are they open or closed fermenters? At my old facility we had closed fermenters, with venting set up to the outside. We ran 1/2" pvc piping along the ceiling with valves set up over each fermenter, and had 1/2" tubing tubing that connected the valves to the fermenters vents. Just connected it together after pitching yeast and it vented straight outside.

You didn't say what you wanted, so I changed it to your name.

Porter- I think you are coming from the pot still / home distilling background. Using a column is a very different creature than a pot still. Basically all the ethyl alcohol is available in a column still, while only a percentage is available with a pot still.