Paul Tomaszewski

You're going to have to do obscuration tests (in all likelihood). After doing enough of them, you'll know how much sugar you have to add and should be able to get it dead on (talking about adding sugar and knowing what the end proof will be). Look into some of the past postings on obscuration and/or proofing lab stills.

you should be good to barrel. We distill our "whiskey mashes" at around 105 proof and then it goes straight to the barrel. Back in the day, everything was barreled at a lower proof. IMHO, as long as you pay attention to your heads and tails, lower proof means more flavor. If you like the flavor from what you're mashing, than that should be a good thing, especially if you want to set yourself apart and accentuate whatever it is instead of "just another rye." I will say that by barreling your whiskey at a lower proof, in our experience, it tends to age somewhat slower. Again, a trade off for flavor. We age our 5-gal barrels for a year, give or take, just for reference.

brother, not trying to hurt your feelings, but that probably ain't gonna work for 500 gal. Do the math and I'm just going to guess that you'd need 3 or 4 inch copper tubing, or so much length that it'd hit the thousands with how much that stuff can run you, but at least your hardware store would appreciate it!

We do roughly 150 gal of liquid + solids and we do two things, stir and toss in a few blocks of homemade ice from 1 gal buckets. It can still take a bit to cool the mash, but so far so good. Just me guessing here, but I'm thinking that @ 500 gal, you won't be able to go that route (someone out there please correct me if I'm wrong), I'm thinking you pretty much have to do a coil cooling system of some sort, as in $$$. One day I'm sure I'll go that route, but for now it's do what we know and can afford.

I concur, had this same conversation with formulation a while back, total run.

Okay, don't want to beat anyone up too much, but whisk(e)y is a grain distillate, distilled at the right proof (I think we all know that part), aged in oak containers (unless it's corn whiskey, than it doesn't have to be aged in oak but if it is it MUST be used, charred or toasted oak). For it to be bourbon, it's just like any other whiskey, technically when the grain distillate hits the wood, it hypothetically could be called bourbon. In order to use the "straight" designation prior to any whiskey at all (including corn), it MUST BE AGED FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS. Now, according to the folks at the TTB that I've talked to, there is no requirement to put "corn" in front of "whiskey," just like there is no requirement to put any other designation prior to "whiskey" if it legally can be called "whiskey." If the product that you are making can legally be called any whiskey at all, you are only required to put "whiskey" on the label. The hangup here is twofold, some of which has been discussed at length on other postings: 1. Grain distillates that are not aged and less than 80% corn are technically not whiskey, they are "spirits distilled from grain." (lookup "Maker's Mark White Dog" in the cola registry for an example). If this is true, than there are various unaged non-corn "whiskies" that are labeled incorrectly. Otherwise, how can one given product be labeled as "spirits distilled from grain" (maker's) and another be labeled as "whiskey" (BT, Heaven Hill, etc). It is my opinion that any and all grain distillates that fit that criteria are not whiskies, and I believe that the regs support that. I think that all of us making all of these so called "white whiskies" is taxing (no pun intended) the TTB and they are considering serious (but not necessarily correct) measures to deal with this situation. 2. What I was told by the feds is that if you have the word "white" ANYWHERE on your front label (doesn't matter if it's the same font, next to "whiskey," upside down, in chinese, what the heck ever, IF IT'S ON THE FRONT LABEL, and apparently "black" may be treated the same way, I don't friggin know!), you're going to be contacted by them and they will tell you that you will be required to amend your label appropriately. More to come, will let you know when I get a reply.

Well Ladies & Gents, do I have one for you that is in the league of a few of our last posts. We're submitting new versions of our "white dog" and "black dog" labels only to find that the TTB is deliberating on if "white" and "whiskey" can be on the front label. Furthermore, they are applying this rule to our "black dog" as well. Now, I will say that the TTB specialists that I have spoken with regards to this matter have been more than understanding and reasonable as far as trying to make sense of this situation. However comma the gist is that they are about to require every single dsp that has a product that has "white" and "whiskey" on the front label to amend that given cola to not have those two words on that front (brand) label. Here is my inquiry/response and I am waiting on a reply, they said I should get a call and/or response within the next few days and I'll post that when it comes: Dear Mrs. X, I will attempt to make this information and explanation with regards to our product ID information as to the point as possible. From our conversation today, it is my understanding that formulation and labeling is going to require that any "whiskey-type product" not include the term "white" on the front label in conjunction with the word "whisk(e)y." If that is the case, than I believe it may be worth considering that the regulations be amended and/or notification be sent out to all licensed dsp's of this information explaining the rationale of this measure. I will say that all unaged whiskies that we produce are a "corn whisk(e)y" and can be unaged, whereas some other products that I have seen on the market are not made from at least 80% corn mash, and are unaged "white dogs," but are still labeled as a "whiskey" somewhere on the front label. As per the regulations, if a producer were to make a distilled spirit product of a mash of grain, but not of at least 80% corn, and it be unaged (and distilled at below 160 proof), than that product would be "spirits distilled from grain." I submit that these products are far more confusing and contradictory of the regulations than the term "white dog." Within the distilling community, it is understood that a "white dog" is the unaged, clear grain spirit (that can be a whiskey if that product is at least 80% corn in the mash), prior to it going into a barrel for aging. Is there a possibility that that term could be added to the regulations and, therefore, allow producers to use this term on their front label in conjunction with the term "whiskey" or "spirits distilled from grain" (depending on if their product were at least 80% corn mash)? If there is a case where we can use the term "white dog" in conjunction with "whiskey" on the front label, we would like to use that term on TTB ID 11108001000472. Furthermore, we do use white corn in our production of our unaged, corn whiskies, and, therefore, if we were to use the term "white corn whiskey" on a label, that could also be in reference to our specific use of white vs. yellow corn. With regards to our "Black Dog Whiskey" label (TTB ID 11108001000476). This product is another unaged, corn whiskey product that is produced from a mash of at least 80% corn, however the corn has been smoked, adding additional flavor that carries over to the unaged, clear spirit. The "Black" in the fanciful name is merely a spin on the classic "white dog" term, especially because we do have a standard "white dog" product that we make using a mash of at least 80% corn, but still 100% grain. Finally, we have an additional product that we have produced and wish to continue to label as "Black Patch Whiskey." This product is a corn whiskey made from a mash of our "smoked/dark fired" corn, then aged in used, charred oak barrels and is meant to embody our local area and the production of "dark fired" tobacco. In the case of the term "Black Patch," this is a reference to the area of Kentucky that we are located. The term "Black Patch" refers to counties in southwestern Kentucky (including Christian County) where "dark fired" tobacco is produced and where there was a civil uprising in the early 1900s that is of much historical significance for this area, known as the "Black Patch Wars." The "Black" on the label for this product is not so much in reference to any color of the product, but of this location reference. Furthermore, if "white" or "black" is not allowed on a front label, than what of other colors, particularly if it is part of a location (ie "Blue Ridge" or "Red River" or "Green Mountains"). I understand and appreciate that your primary role in regulating the use of these colors on labels is to ensure that these products are truthful and not confusing to the consumer. However, I do ask that you and all TTB authorities take into account that there are various historical and location references to these terminologies and that the issue here is if a product is legally whiskey or if it is merely a "spirit distilled from grain" vs. if white is on the label or not.

We had a similar situation, in the end we insulated our production area so that the temp inside never goes below 60 F. That being said, you don't want your mash going too far below 55-60 F range. A blanket may work, depending on the ambient temp (how low it goes), as you are correct in that the mash will help maintain a temperature in itself through the heat it puts off. Finally, worst case scenario, you can also use some simple immersion (aquarium) heaters, but go plastic as the glass ones will crack and burst.

Alright folks, if you're interested, please see the attached and RSVP via PM, e-mail or phone. We're having a music event during the day prior to this private event for all, so feel free to come early and enjoy the Kentucky summer weather all day and night. We're an easy hour drive NW of Nashville, TN, about a mile off of I-24, not too difficult for many of you to make in a day's drive. No medals will be given out as this is merely a party... a real one. Dress is casual, very casual, I'll be wearing shorts and flip-flops. For those really serious, feel free to set up a tent or lay out a sleeping bag in the yard, MB will make breakfast the next morning for anyone who's still around. Distillers\' Party.pdf

In my experience the online retailer is just like any other liquor store. We sell to the distributor, distributor sells to the online retailer, and then where they can ship to is based on the regs in the given state. Approximately half of all the states do not allow for shipping of distilled spirits products.

wine bottles are calibrated for wine on headspace vs. spirits bottles that happen to look like wine bottles are calibrated for higher-proof spirits. I think you'll be fine using wine bottles, but when it comes to shipping with distributors, you need to make sure that the product(s) don't get too hot as expansion may be an issues. We started out with wine bottles and have changed over to a spirits bottle, partly for that reason.

I've gone through local channels to get 50 lb. bags of granulated white cane sugar, from a few to about 20 at a time and would rather order by the pallet at this point and hopefully save some cash. Can anyone direct me to some good sources out there other than Sam's or Sysco? (I'm near Nashville, TN)

We did all three. Because I had a nice chunk of change (we're talking personal savings, not family money or anything like that) to bring to the table and we could offer some collateral, the bank was willing to talk for an SBA loan. Once they looked at things they ran a "stress test" to see how things would fly and were impressed with our numbers and setup (we did have a location established prior to going to the bank). If your business plan is solid and you have a good location that you can act on, that's key. Once they approved the loan and dished the cash, they gave us six months "like a construction loan" in order to get going before we had to start payments. We also went with some family/close friends for minority investment. However, echoing Scott, I priced setting things up with lawyers to go after big money folks that could throw in real money at around 25K, and that's probably a low-end estimate. We ended up sticking with what we had and didn't go with a lot of big money and the trade-off was a lot of sweat equity and it'll be still a while before I get anything I could call a paycheck after doing this for over two years. However, as long as I can pay my bills you'll never hear me complain, I can keep moving things along until we start making enough cash for me to get paid (plus after not getting a paycheck for this long it'll be like Christmas times 10 when I do!). I'll also put my two cents in that IF you don't have serious money backing you and you do need to start paying the bills within a few months, you better damnwell be able to sell to the public in some way, shape or form from your location because it will take a bit for distributors to get a decent pipeline established, at least that's my experience and I'm currently working within seven states. High marks if you're in an area where you can drum up traffic from locals or tourists (I'm a mile from the interstate, that does help).

I'm not a professional still maker/designer, but our simple 100-gal. copper pot still distills our hearts to somewhere in the 100-115 proof range on one pass (that's the combined hearts average). All that's connected to ours is a very simple condenser but, other than that, our kettle/lyne arm have nothing inside whatsoever. You can check out a pic on our website (www.mbrdistillery.com), and I'd take Will's recommendation. Just some side advice that I'd mentally prepare myself (if you haven't already) that you'll need to tweak some things in your first few months of operation until you get into a comfortable groove, so don't be afraid to be ready to run it one way and have a back-up plan or two to run it a different way, especially if you have a few extra bucks to run things that way.

Sazerac/BT is a machine. Whether they're doing this for publicity or if they will make a regularly-produced product to add to their lineup of 50+ is pointless, they know what they're doing, they'll make money in the end.

I'm looking to upgrade our current pump that we use for moving our spirits/products into our bottler and for filtering purposes. It's a buon vino superjet, nothing fancy obviously, but wondering if some of you are using something out there that's a bit heartier. We have a wilden diaphram pump for moving mash/wash, I'm just looking for something for moving/filtering the spirit, something that isn't too violent in order to avoid splashing.

The letters, if memory serves me correct, is some added features to include the captured key. Typical hardware stores/home improvement places won't have them in stock, that's why you have to ask them to special order the locks.

Print out the specs just in case, bring it to a hardware store, they will have to call Master Lock and order them for you. The model number for those specs SHOULD BE 6850MKNR. I'd get a few God keys (that open all of them) with the order, they'll also come with individual keys for each lock. You're welcome.

You're basically asking about something that is up to your state. Unless your state is really weird, a gift shop is always retail. That being said, the regs for tobacco and how the taxes are collected and if you can sell is up to your state.

Cincinnati Specialty Insurance, most independent agents should be able to access them.

Been doing all wax seals for a year now, almost every color of the rainbow. We just started using some stripping material from Payne-Richmond (as opposed to reinforced packaging tape) that seems to hold up very well. The good news is the cost is a fraction of the pack. tape, the bad news (depending on your production amount) is the tape comes on a 32,000 ft roll that's about the size of a spare tire. I'm guessing that'll take care of a few thousand cases for us. Obviously you need to wrap the tape on the bottle and leave a stub out for pulling (refer to earlier posts on wax seals), it'll tear off a clean strip that will still leave most of the wax intact. Here's the contact info for them, very nice guy to deal with, just tell him you're sealing bottles and he'll know what to send: Tom Cerny, Sales Manager, Payne - Richmond Inc., e-mail is TomCerny@Payne-Worldwide.com Product ID: R1E060WHT0100 Film Thickness: 150 micron Tape Width: 6 mm wide Length: 32,000 ln ft (Roughly 64,000 bottles worth)

I'm merely asking for clarification purposes for the sake of what has and hasn't been approved by the TTB and if it is possible, according to them, to have formulation approve an unaged, less than 80% mash spirit as a "whiskey" of any sort. So you're saying that you sent in a TTB 5100.51 (Formula and Process For Domestic and Imported Alcoholic Beverages) to formulation and they approved it as "other whisky" and allowed you to put "rye whisk(e)y" on the label? And, for the record, my vote is I think it's dumb to allow "corn whiskey" to be labeled as such as an unaged product, but not other mash whiskies. And yes, I realize the historical implications of allowing corn whiskey to be unaged, but it's really confusing to make it so that (in the regs) all whiskey must be aged in oak EXCEPT if it's this one certain, specific kind that is made from a certain grain... idiotic. So all Ford "Mustangs" will be referred to as "mustangs," unless they're blue, than they're called a Ford "Stallion."

It's all fine and dandy to allow politicians and lawyers write CFR's that we have to adhere to, but what do those of us that are distillers think? Should grain spirits that are distilled below 190 proof and NOT aged in oak be called a "whiskey," or "spirits distilled from X?" I'm interested to know what our consensus ends up being.

All three BT "White Dogs" have the same formula/sop # (SAZ-4), all three have whiskey down at the bottom in the fine print. Unless their Mash #1, Rye Mash, and Wheated Mash are all the exact same mashbill, than I figure "SAZ-4" is some sort of internal number, not a TTB-approved formula. Not trying to pick a fight with BT or anyone else, but I doubt they went through formulation, and as stated in my last post, labeling approved it based purely on it's merits as a LABEL, not that it's a whiskey or not. I'm not trying to stonewall or make myself look like I know anything, I am merely speaking and looking at this on my understanding and/or experience. If someone can tell that someone in formulation (not labeling) told them that a "whiskey" can be unaged and less than 80% corn, or they sent a formula for approval and it was approved, please let me know... please let all of us know so we can put this "dog" to rest.

I have spoken at length with both our specialist for formulation, as well as the supervisor of formulation in the past on this matter. From my conversations with them, the bottom line is if you don't submit a formula, and you submit "whisk(e)y" on your label, you are swearing that you're making a whiskey, whether it be an unaged corn or aged whiskey of a different mashbill. Now if everyone who's making a "white dog" that is unaged and not 80% corn in the mash were to submit a formula to the TTB, than I would wager to say that most, if not all, would be approved as "spirits distilled from grain." So, basically, according to formulation, if you make a less than 80% corn mash white dog and bypass formulation and still put "whisk(e)y" on the label, you're wrong. I can also speak from experience that the labeling and formulation folks are of two different camps. This is a formulation matter, labeling folks approve labels, it us up to YOU, the producer, or formulation to determine if what you're making is legal to the label. Now if someone has spoken directly with someone in formulation and they've said that an unaged, less than 190 proof off the still, ALL GRAIN distilled spirit of less than 80% corn can be labeled as "whisk(e)y," I'd love to know about it.