Classification question: Is it still bourbon???

[AK2]

I am confusing myself and I would like for this forum to unconfuse me please. 

Knowing the class and type definitions for whiskey https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-5/subpart-I/section-5.143 , can you blend an unaged rye distillate with an unaged bourbon distillate, age it, and still call it bourbon as long as you blend it in such a fashion that based upon grain bill it is still 51% or better corn mash?

 

1/2 of me says no, because in the regulation it states "fermented mash of not less than 51% of said grain".  That means that the Rye was fermented mash of 51% or better Rye grain, therefore if it was added, even in the proper proportions, it was never a fermented mash of 51% or greater corn.  

 

The other 1/2 says yes, because if you blended the two in the proper proportions it would be just like having 25% Rye grain in the mash.  At the end of the day the majority of the grain that led to the distillate would be corn.  

 

Can anyone shed some light on this or tell me if there is another subsection of the regulations that I am missing?

 

Thank you for any help

Adam

[Bier Distillery]

"and still call it bourbon as long"

Sure.  The distillate from your fermented mash(es) is(are) >51 corn.  Must the fermented mash must be fermented once and together?

Try a formula and see if the TTB agrees.

[Foreshot]

No. A local company did what you describing. The TTB would not allow it to be called bourbon. For the TTB it had to be mashed/fermented/distilled together. By blending them after distillation you are creating a blend of whiskeys. They call it "Bourbon style" on the webpage but you won't see bourbon on the label. It's a great product, just not legally bourbon. 

https://www.bigspringspirits.com/shop/american-whiskey

[Bier Distillery]

It isn't whiskey until it has been put into a barrel, so it can't be a blend of whiskeys either.

[SlickFloss]

No, your liquid is a blend of two distillates resulting from two separate ferments which yielded two separate spirit types based of grain bills for each individual ferment. Could you get creative on paper work and live in a world of technicalities yeah but real world legal booze no. Preblending before aging a rye and a bourbon creates a DSS or a whiskey even if you want to call it a Bourye. Or a bourbon…… could it be a blended bourbon depending on the wood and the proportions?

 

For instance, a blend of 21% and 36% MGP can’t be labeled 29% rye (or whatever it’d be) straight bourbon. It would be a blend of straight bourbons. 

[Bier Distillery]

Is there a regulation that says your bourbon mash must be completely blended prior to fermentation and distillation? 

If it isn't prohibited, then it is permitted. The differences between distilling a bourbon mash in a pot vs column still are far greater than this.  A column still doesn't heat & distill everything at once either and the distillate is fully blended once distillation is complete.

Again, your example includes barrel aging which isn't what we are talking about here.

[SlickFloss]

I’ve deleted a few snarky responses to you here. Distillates are results of work they’re classified by paper work. If one were to take x amount of unaged bourbon and blend it with x % of unaged 95 rye whiskey to get to the point where the spirit is a technical “x% high rye bourbon” it is still a tank of blended whiskey aged or unaged. It’s not literally x% high rye bourbon. One could age it in a new barrel but it will never be a straight bourbon legally. 
 

to respond to another of your  statements about column stills, the only way to get it legal is have the ferments be the result of a single distillation. So running both ferments through the same beer well in a single shift. That’s not the same as blending two separate distillates (an unaged rye and an unaged bourbon original posts question) because those have been classified as results of work in paperwork. 
 

Submitting a formula for as described in original post does not result in a yes that will be straight bourbon.
 

So as I mentioned you can get creative with paperwork and technicalities and fermenters and beer wells no problem (but your phenolic development will likely be fucked on your ferments)but legally no. You can’t take unaged rye whiskey blend it with unaged bourbon mash distillate in a new barrel and call it a straight bourbon. At best a blended, as I mentioned. At least in the states. 
 

: )

[Bier Distillery]

14 minutes ago, SlickFloss said:

I’ve deleted a few snarky responses to you here.

So? Thank you??

I don't think you answered my question.  I have no horse in this race.  Cheers.

[SlickFloss]

I think I'm talking past you. The fundamental legal definition of a distillate is what negates your logic here. Also, because there isn't a specific ban on something from your perspective, doesn't allow a specific practice (Especially when taking into account ttbs view of the definition of a distillate.).

No there isn't a specific regulation against it per se but there are other things that address it..... the practice your describing falls under the realm of a blended whiskey in the regs. Unless you get creative on paper work and run a continuous column out of a beer well with multiple terms and end of month them as a single cook and ferment. 

 

Your logic is completely missing the entire way a distillate is defined. Each distillate is a result of a separate distillation of a different mash bill. Mash bills produce distillates. A rye and bourbon blended together doesn't make it a different mash bill rye whiskey. 

 

 

[Tom Lenerz]

SlickFloss is right, it is specifically prohibited, if you read the regs. Reading the rules, explains the rules.

See definition of distillation: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-19/subpart-L/subject-group-ECFR3229fff77eb967f/section-19.301

"However, the quantity and proof of any unfinished spirits must be determined and recorded before any mingling with other materials or before any further operations involving the unfinished spirits outside the continuous system". Since you are breaking the continuous system, i.e. changing mash bills and starting another production run you need to identify the unfinished spirit and place it into storage. 

See identification of spirits: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-19/subpart-L/subject-group-ECFR3229fff77eb967f/section-19.305

"When the proprietor intends to enter spirits into storage on bonded premises for later packaging in wooden packages, the proprietor may identify the spirits with the designation to which they would be entitled if drawn into wooden packages, followed by the word “Designate,” for example, “Bourbon Whisky Designate.”"

See definitions of whiskeys: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-5/subpart-I/section-5.143

"Fermented mash of not less than 51%, respectively: Corn" means just that, not a blend of distillates that result in that. 

[Bier Distillery]

Thanks @Tom Lenerzfor answering the question.

[AK2]

Thank you to all who replied.  It seems to me that the more I read the regs, the more I can talk myself into something!  Thank you again.

 

Adam

[AK2]

Update:  The TTB got back to me.  In their opinion mixing the distillates would NOT qualify as bourbon, due to the reasons a few of you pointed out.  They did state that I could submit a formula for further evaluation, but after reading on this forum and their initial response I do not think it will be bourbon.  Thank you again to all who chimed in.  

 

Adam