Southernhighlander

I was just looking over my notes from the testing. It appears that we did have some surging in the final condenser itself when we ran with colder coolant however the surge suppressor on the final condenser compensated for it, for the most part. Best operation for vodka was with the final condenser coolant going in at 53 F and coming out of the final condenser going into the dephlegmator at 120F. In that situation the system self balanced after the initial phase of loading the plates and compressing the heads, which was done manually using the bypasses. This is what Alexander was talking about when he mentioned the system balancing itself when plumbed this way. In fact it will self balance with up to 3 dephlegmators fed sequentially from last to first. We have never tried to run more than that. Alexander designs large commercial and Industrial continuous column stills and vacuum stills for a manufacturer in Ukraine. He has a deep understanding of continuous column and vacuum still design. He has worked for me on several projects, some of them very large. He holds 2 engineering degrees and he was a Naval officer. I've seen his resume and it's very impressive.

Silk, You are welcome to visit any time, just give me a heads up a week or two in advance. That's a good design. Better than most. I bet your still runs really smoothly without swings with that set up.

Silk, During testing we ran all scenarios including really cold coolant, really warm coolant etc. Without adjustable dephlgmator bypasses we had all of the issues you would expect from the things you mention above, however once we added adjustable coolant bypass control at the dephlegmators there were no issues and everything worked perfectly as one would expect. Warmer coolant up to 74 degrees F caused us no issues running sequential condensers. We simply increased coolant flow to the final condenser so that the final condenser output temp was the same as with the lower temp coolant and we adjusted the dephlegmator coolant bypass so that the dephleg had the exact same flow and temperature as it did when we were running 52 F coolant. It's that simple. Let me know the next time you are down this way and I will set up a prototype still in my equipment testing lab and you can see the results given above. We'll run both kinds of coolant designs so you can see the difference. I have lots of fun toys in the testing lab right now including a really fast vacuum stripping still and a subcritical CO2 extractor that operates at 1600psi without a pump of any sort.

Hi Everyone, The first still that I saw with athe condensers plumbed in series was a Kothe still that we did some work on. It also had a thermostatic valve to partially automate the coolant flow. The Ukrainians, Russians and Germans all run their coolant from their final condensers to their dephlegmators for the reasons that Alexander gives below. We have tested both methods thoroughly here and the method of running coolant from the final condenser to the dephlegmator or dephlegmators before it, works the best hands down. In the many test runs that we did we used less coolant running the condensers in series than separately. We had better control and smoother output running in series and we were able to maintain higher proofs during Vodka runs. We also found that we could run much colder water to the final condenser with absolutely no issues, when plumbed in series, Though I generally recommend condenser coolant be around 50 degrees F. I see no issue running 42 F coolants through a tube in shell final condenser. In testing we found that even lower temps are okay as long as the coolant flow is reduced so that the condenser output temp is the same. Of course you must run at lower flow with lower temp coolant so that the condenser output temps are the same otherwise you will get chugging. Our vacuum stills run coolant as low as -40 F through the final condensers with no issues however that is a different situation The German, Russian and Ukranian still builders got it right. They all run the coolant in series from the final condenser back through the dephlegmators from the last dephlegmator to the first. I don't know their standard recomendation but every Vendome column still that I've seen had their condensers plumbed in series as discribed above. We partially automate the coolant control of up to 3 columns and the final condenser with one Danvos thermostatic valve and we have done it many times with great success. This has enabled us to have 300 gallon Vodka stills with 20 plates that stand less than 10 ft tall. None of our competitors are doing that. Our 300 gallon Vodka stills with fit in spaces with ceilings as low as 10 ft. I have over 500 of my stills in distilleries and I can say with absolute certainty that Alexander's statement below is correct. Below Alexanders statement is a pic of stills in one of my 3 assembly shops. All 3 shops have stills under construction at all times. The still in front is a 105 gallon Standard Series Vodka Still with gin basket and CIP. The huge still pot back and to the right is part of a Paul Hall Signature Series 2,500 gallon Ultra Pro Vodka Still. When running Whiskey it will put out up to 75 gallons per hour. This pot is waiting to be jeweled. My employees will put several thousand swirls in the stainless to form a fish scale pattern. Each swirl must be done perfectly and no mistakes can be made. It's all done using smal pnumatic drills running 2" sanding pads. It will look amazing when it's complete and it;s condensers will be plumbed in series and will be controlled with one thermostatic valve. It will have 2 dephlegmators and one final condenser "The role of the condenser-alcohol cooler and the reflux condenser is different. It is important for the condenser to turn all the alcohol vapor into liquid and cool the alcohol. For a reflux condenser, it is important not to condense all the alcohol, but to do just partial condensation. If you supply very cold water to the dephlegmator, you run the risk of disrupting the normal flow of the process. Why? because there will be a very large temperature difference between cold water and alcohol vapor. If you supply water to the dephlegmator after the alcohol condenser-cooler, this water will be heated to 30-40 degrees Celsius, this will not cause a "condensation shock" in the dephlegmator. You will get a stable dephlegmator performance."

Knowing what I know now. I believe that it is always best to pass the coolant through the final condenser before it passes through the dephlegmator or dephlegmators. This gives you a much more stable output and better control. It also allows you to run lower coolant temps to the final condenser with no issues.

I'm not an engineer but I can tell you that you would not risk cracking a tube with that temperature differential, as long as everything is well made. It would not bother me a bit to have greater temperature differential. I have mash cookers out there that have been in operation for almost 10 years that utilize a single jacket for both steam heat and cooling. The steam temps are around 243 F and the coolant temps are as low as 36 F. It never worried me a bit to design them that way because I had already designed, and had my employees build, steam injection boilers with temperature differentials of over 1400 degrees, between the fire box and the inner boiler with no issues. My current mash tun design has an internal crash cooling coil. I only changed the design because the internal coil has a great deal more thermal exchange surface area than the inner part of the jacket did.

Welcome.

Below is a picture of one of our 800 gallon Signature Series Ultra Pro Vodka Stills. The bottom picture is of Nate doing the jeweling on one of the column stands for this still. He does an incredible job. He does it all with a small pneumatic drill and 2" sanding pads. His patterns are always perfect.

We have vacuum stills that will do the job for you with your hot water. Our vacuum stills allow you to distill at 150 F giving you the temperature differential that you need to have a very fast run time with hot water. If you have enough BTUs the stripping runs can be completed in as little as 2 hrs including the stills heat up time. If you are interested email paul@distillery-equipment.com

Yes, we can help you. Email paul@distillery-equipment.com

He does have a heckuva of a well and all his cooling costs him is the electricity for his well pump, which is almost nothing. He's also talking about buying 2 more of our 2,500 gallon stills with 2 mash tuns and 28 more 2,500 gallon fermenters. He will use the same well or another for this equipment. One of his wells supplies the water to the nearest town. It may be the same one that he uses for his distillery, but I'm not sure. Wells are cheap to have dug in rural areas, where there's plenty of water. I paid $11,500.00 to have my last well drilled here, 4 years ago. It would have cost less but I wanted it to put out at least 40 gpm so they had to go deeper. It put out 53 gpm when they tested it and it is 432ft deep. It put out 6 gpm naturally without a pump or back pressure so it could be classified as a spring. There are 2 other wells on my property here. The one for my house put out 22 gpm when tested and it's a little over 200 ft deep. There is an old well that was here when I moved here that is only 20 to 30 ft deep that's been here over 100 years and it still works. It has a hand pump. There's a lot of chicken and turkey operations south of here that have wells that put out between 40 and 80 gpm and then south of there the irrigation wells down in the bottoms put out over 100 gallons per minute for the rice farms there. A good well, with plenty of cold water, is almost always a better option, when considering costs, than a chiller. It can also be a much greener solution than having a chiller, if done correctly. Of course where there is not cold well water, a chiller is the best option for crash cooling mash and sometimes for condenser cooling.

Thanks, that's good to know.

Has anyone on here had an engineer to do the work to make their distillery exempt from having the classified areas around the still etc., as per the NFPA?

We don't stock them but I've heard that they work great.

We import these ceramic Raschig rings by the 55 gallon barrel, in several different sizes. We keep a couple of thousand lbs of it in stock. Our prices are really good, so if anyone needs some let us know and we will quote it. We use it in several different packed column sizes, all of the way up to 12" diameter. paul@distillery-equipment.com

"At the time they we were distilling water." "There were no people in the building at the time of the fire and no one was injured." I feel really bad for their loss of property. I'm glad no one was hurt. A still should never be left completely unattended, even distilling water, no matter how automated it is.

dmacnz, A great, simple, common sense solution for not having to spend huge amounts of money on an ethanol storage space here in the US is to store outside the distillery. Simply store it in a UL listed stainless steel above ground tank. It is looked at the same as an above ground fuel tank. Storing ethanol this way can save tens of thousands and sometimes even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Of course some cannot do it this way because they simply do not have the outside space or they are in an area of high crime or possible social unrest, but for those who can store outside, there are huge advantages over the costs etc of building an indoor storage area. You should check and see if this is an option in Macau.

We can help you. Email: paul@distillery-equipment.com

Galapadoc, I'm currently finishing up Fridays emails. I saw your email and will answer it shortly. The problem with a vacuum still at your location is that your cooling water temp is too high. You would need coolant that is 53F or colder. Colder would be better, so you will need a chiller if you run a vacuum still. When you lower the boiling point of ethanol under vacuum you also lower the temperature at which ethanol will condense which means you need colder condenser coolant.

We have a system that gives the best of both worlds: a vacuum still for stripping and a conventional spirit still for the final run. Our vacuum stripping stills are fast and cost only a little more than our conventional stills. Our vacuum stills can be fired by a hot water heater, hot water boiler or wood fired hydronic boiler. If you are in the right area, firing a vacuum still with wood is the most economical way to go. paul@distillery-equipment.com

Galapadoc, They aren't on the web site. For information and or a quote email: paul@distillery-equipment.com. We have several sizes of vacuum stripping stills in stock. We also have short path stills and rotary evaporators that operate under vacuum as well as lab chillers that go down to -40 C, heat sources and vacuum pumps.

To Silk's point. I don't understand why so many manufacturers produce stills with no insulation layer. All of our Pro Series and Signature series stills have an insulation jacket over the steam jacket on the pot. As a side note we have vacuum stripping stills that are as efficient as continuous column stills and they are also very fast and produce a great tasting spirit. Distillation takes place at 150 F so a conventional chiller or well water can be used to cool the condenser. The insulation layers on these are simple, empty jackets that we pull vacuum on. There is no actual insulation in the jacket just vacuum, which is one of the best insulators. These stills are fired by 190 F hot water circulated through the jacket. The hot water can come from a hot water heater, hydronic wood fired furnace or any other hot water source. We have them in stock up to 100 gallon capacity.

Thatch, I hear you. Navanjohnson, Propane is not considered a green house gas. https://www.diversifiedenergy.com/news/how-does-propane-gas-affect-the-environment/ So it is a green solution. One of my customers has a 2,500 gallon still, 2,500 gallon mash tun, 800 gallon still, two 800 gallon mash tuns, 300 gallon still and a 300 gallon mash tun that are all fired with the steam from a 10,000,000 BTU, propane fired, low pressure steam boiler. His propane tanks are huge but everything works great. He uses well water for his condenser cooling. His well also supplies the water for the town that is near his facility. He never hired an engineer. He didn't need to. I sold him the equipment and gave him all of the specs and cut sheets and his contractors used the spec sheets for the build out. He probably saved over $1,000,000.00 by not hiring an engineer. Most likely an engineer would have suggested that he use chillers instead of his well water which is one reason why he saved so much. However this is not to say that engineers are not needed for building distilleries. Some situations require an engineer.

Thatch, He's saying that his power comes from coal fired power plants. As far as wind and solar, a 1000 gallon stripping still, 1000 gallon mash tun and 300 gallon spirit still need at least 500,000 watts of power. With solar panels at 400 watts per panel that would be 1,250 solar panels. There are no small to mid size windmills available (that I know of) that will produce that amount of power. This is enough power for 30 to 50 homes. also you would need enough batteries to store at least 3 days of energy for the distillery for when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining so that would mean a battery or batteries that can store 1,500,000 watt hours of power. This is why solar and wind are not feasible for industrial power without either huge amounts of storage or other power sources such as natural gas fired power plants, nuclear power plants and or hydroelectric power plants.

I agree with Golden Beaver. Circulate the pond water through your condensers and back into the pond. You can handle the crash cooling the same way. No chiller needed. Get you a 30 gpm pump. No engineering is needed. For heating a natural gas fired low pressure steam boiler is the best and propane second best, from a cost prospect.