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58 minutes ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Not following why this is still a problem to be solved?

Very good point.  Three years ago we were quoted $350 for second-fill barrel. Now I field a dozen calls a week from coopers / resellers.   

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Indy, All of us have scrutinized the regs, 1st to make sure we are in compliance and 2nd to find unique ways to make craft spirits while staying in compliance. The creative "spirit" in our industry is what makes us unique and interesting to our consumers. So good for you to look at things differently. But has been inferred by others, you are beating a dead horse with nowhere to go with this barrel vs stick thing. You have a lot better things to spend your energy on at this point. Get a few barrels and move on. damm I'll send you a few barrels n/c. Your customers are gonna want to know how you make your whiskey. They will probably like hearing that you rested it in a barrel for for  added complexity than you blessed it with a charred stick. 

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9 hours ago, jackb1050 said:

"...blessed it with a charred stick." 

Almost lost my sip of coffee on that one - might have a clever marketing angle there...

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I am an Aussie so I don't need to follow TTB regulations,

but I always thought you had to age whiskey and bourbon in NEW oak containers.

Also to offer an answer to the stick or stave suggestion, they are not containers, a container means you put the liquid into a space that is surrounded by oak, not liquid surrounding the oak.

A hollow wooden cube is a container, I assume it doesn't need to be a barrel or cask.

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Would cost me more money, and take more time, to make an oak box than calling up (Insert Barrel Company Here).  Pretty sure my oak box would be leaky as hell too.  Also consider the capital investment in machinery, space, and good quality oak.  Not to mention the opportunity cost of the time and money, because you could be spending your time and money making whiskey, and not building a wood shop.

Realistically, we're talking about $1-2 of cost per finished bottle, maybe a bit more for smaller oak.  An empty glass bottle costs roughly this much, the label and closures will cost roughly this much.  Used cooperage significantly less, and if you recycle your new oak into used oak products (malt whiskey, corn whiskey, brandy, rum), this overhead is further reduced.

Are you really saying that you'd rather spend your money on the glass, label, and closure - and not the whiskey itself?  That $1-2 on a suitable oak container, which is arguably the most important part of the process, is simply too expensive and you are going to cheap out?

This is crazy talk gentlemen.  The first rule of craft whiskey is to not sell shitty whiskey.  Make all the shitty whiskey you want, but please god don't try to sell it.

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On 2/9/2018 at 7:49 AM, jackb1050 said:

you are beating a dead horse with nowhere to go with this barrel vs stick thing

I have no idea what you're referring to.  I never said the word "stick", only exploiting the notion of an oak container (as per the regs) rather than a barrel. Simmer down there killer.

 

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Oak container. Can just touch, but must go in, then out. If used, the question remains if it can be "troughed", but it is all about how you could later prove the time in container to the TTB, which will be reported on the label as the age statement. The "white whiskies" out there with no age statement, other than corn, are simply BREAKING THE LAW. Heck, there are many distillers (some in my state) that have no age statement on whiskies, which means they MUST be 4 years old or older, that are known to blend in younger barrels, and so are breaking the law. How do the get away with it? They haven't been audited yet. The COLA won't catch this, because a COLA without age statement is legal (just means the whiskey is older the 4 years), so the "approved" label can be put on a bottle, but with the wrong contents. Until TTB audit shows they are not putting the correct product with the correct label, they get away with it.

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4 hours ago, indyspirits said:

I have no idea what you're referring to.  I never said the word "stick", only exploiting the notion of an oak container (as per the regs) rather than a barrel. Simmer down there killer.

 

you mentioned putting a stave in your blending barrel , sorry I used poetic licence and called it a stick. 

I took my time to give you my best advice, maybe it is worth what you paid for it, but you asked. Maybe it is worth something . I have been in the bis for only 3 years  We have 12 products placed in over 1,000 points of sales. We have put up over 700 barrels of various whiskeys. 

I don't know much but if you are gonna be in this bis you better grow thicker skin and find a sense of humor. 

oh and I offered you some free barrels to help you get started at no charge. probably $500 out of my pocket, which I would have gladly done to help someone just getting started.

nice reply from you.

good luck yer gonna need it

 

 

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3 hours ago, jackb1050 said:

you mentioned putting a stave in your blending barrel

You've clearly lost your mind and confused me with someone else. 

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9 hours ago, jackb1050 said:

"Whiskey" can be any oak container......, "Bourbon Whiskey" new oak

https://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter4.pdf 

RYE WHISKY³ Whisky produced at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent rye and stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in charred new oak containers

WHEAT WHISKY³ Whisky produced at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent wheat and stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in charred new oak containers

Maybe I am not reading fully but there was no mention of just the word "whiskey" 

WHISKY DISTILLED FROM RYE MALT MASH¹ Whisky produced in the U.S. at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent malted rye and stored in used oak containers.         I presume you have to write on label ".. from...malt mash"

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(b) Class 2; whisky. “Whisky” is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80° proof, and also includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are prescribed.

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OK, but why does the TTB page that I quoted differ from the one you have just quoted??

 

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That is the page I was looking at. 

I assume BAM is the equivalent of "Fake News" :huh:

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3 hours ago, jackb1050 said:

Ha!

and no mention of an oak container for "Whiskey" 

NO! READ THE DANG REGS!!!!

https://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter8.pdf

Whisky - "A specific statement of age is REQUIRED if the whiskey is aged less than 4 years"

Note the BOLD AND CAPITALIZED word. The TTB has it that way in the chapter.  Why? Because whiskey MUST BE AGED.

 

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1 hour ago, MGL said:

NO! READ THE DANG REGS!!!!

https://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter8.pdf

Whisky - "A specific statement of age is REQUIRED if the whiskey is aged less than 4 years"

Note the BOLD AND CAPITALIZED word. The TTB has it that way in the chapter.  Why? Because whiskey MUST BE AGED.

 

yes I know, I quoted the regs above , follow the thread, just commenting on PeteB post that BAM is not consistent with the regs on 4-2 "whiskey". BAM is just a guide. 

always rely on the regs not BAM

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18 hours ago, PeteB said:

That is the page I was looking at. 

I assume BAM is the equivalent of "Fake News" :huh:

Note the "2" on "Whisky"

According to that note at the end of the chart:

"²Sufficient as class and type designation ONLY for whiskies made by: --Blending two or more specific types of whiskies, e.g., a blend of rye whisky and corn whisky should be designated “Whisky” OR --Treating with harmless coloring, flavoring or blending materials* a specific type of whisky not customarily so treated, e.g., bourbon whisky treated with caramel should be designated “Whisky”"

So if we assume the TTB is following this as a labeling guideline (and a distiller is following this rule), using the word "Whisky" as the class/type of product is limited in a way but also opens up some potentially interesting whisky varieties and treatments (for those so inclined).

Coming back to age, the BAM is very clear. The actual underlying regulations I can find aren't clear though I would assume that the TTB would follow the BAM guidelines because they have created them as a guide for labeling. Anyone know where in the CFR it says anything about whisky aging 4 years? I'm guessing it is carefully hidden.

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1 hour ago, jackb1050 said:

"Straight Whiskey" is sufficient  as a class and type

Because in order for it to be straight whiskey, it must be aged no less than two years.

Why is this still an argument? ONLY corn whiskey is unaged.  Age means it must be in an oak container (not a container containing oak).  Anyone doing otherwise is operating illegally and I welcome a TTB auditor to give them a "friendly" visit.

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