baronnahmias Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Does anyone have any experience with internal heating elements to heat up a still. We will be purchasing a 1000 liter still and are trying decide whether to go with an internal heating element versus the purchase of an electric steam boiler. Thank you, Dorit Nahmias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMacaw Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Using an electrical element in a still could work, but don't do so unless you can filter your wash. Your dilution water will need to be demineralized or RO. Both are because fouling will cause a layer to build up on the element that will serve as an insulator and can blow the element up. Usually electrical heating is avoided whether internal or external. The first reasons are some, but the biggest reason is that it is the most expensive way to heat from an energy standpoint and this includes steam generation. It seems like an attractive option because usually the first time cost is lower, but when you account for the higher energy cost and in the case of the heating element, the time cost, it is hard to justify unless it is your only option. Natural gas is by far the cheapest method of generating steam whether via direct injection or via steam jacket. There is also no chance of scorching your wash which affects aroma and flavor. Eric Watson, Owner AlBevCon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 you might contact Derek at: http://www.harvestspirits.com/ He has electric powered stills. Do you have 3 phase power??....probably not practical without it.....check the amount of cost per batch against propane or natural gas. You can get a couple steam boilers pretty cheap on ebay. My Carl's use steam jackets and there is no issue with burn on of whole grain mashes. If you are talking about steam injection you will need "clean" steam per Eric's response.... Best, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutty Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Mr. Watson's advice is right on the money. The typical issue with direct internal electric heating is the high heat flux (i.e. energy input per given surface area). Since a typical immersion heater has significantly less surface area compared to a steam jacket, it must input a lot of heat in a small area which will likely lead to fouling of the heating element and, as Mr. Watson pointed out, premature failure of the element. If immersion heaters are used speak with your immersion heater dealer (Waltow, Tempco, etc...) to get very high surface area/low watt density elements. Additionally, running high power to a brewing/distilling system requires safety considerations to prevent electrocution, not to say that steam does not require safety considerations, but I would prefer to work with steam over high voltage in a wet environment such as brewing/distilling. Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Maine Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Does anyone have any experience with internal heating elements to heat up a still. We will be purchasing a 1000 liter still and are trying decide whether to go with an internal heating element versus the purchase of an electric steam boiler. Thank you, Dorit Nahmias Hey folks, Considering the size of still that you are talking about, I'd rule out direct immersion heaters. Otherwise, I'd disagree with these type heaters being a poor answer for smaller stills. Electric immersion heat has the highest efficiency. Not the cheapest source, but every heat exchange is an efficiency loss. Fire to tube, tube to water, convert water to steam, deliver steam, return or discard condensate. Steam to jacket/ tank. All have subtle losses. We have build a couple of 100 gallon stills with direct immersion heaters. The work wonderfully and are simple to operate. They are also wash down compatible. The heater choice is important. Watt density being very important second only to materials used. Incaloy is a very good choice. We can hold the temperature to within a couple degrees of the set point. Anyways, there is much that can be debated on this topic. Ideally we would all have steam boilers and Jacketed vessels. It's a very fast and safe way to operate. Much depends on your AHJ. Fire chief, local codes enforcement officer. Ect. IMHO, Jes P.S. We do not keep solids in the stills of this type during distillation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hey there Made in Maine, You have some fine looking machines i see! I'm wondering, what's the biggest size still you would make using immersion heater elements?....Why not go up to 200 Gallon?...Also, do you know what the Watt Density rating is for the elements that you use? Also.....A Question about High Voltage and Wet Enviroments Why is it so hard for an electrical contractor to provide electrical grounding and wiring safety? Can it really be so hard for an expert contractor to construct the needed safety requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lswanson1 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I just went through this decision myself a few months ago. I went with a small electric steam boiler from Reimers. The other built in option actually cost more money in the end and truth be told makes your setup less desirable if you ever go to resell the still. The still will be cheaper and you can find a good/great boiler for your needs (assuming you only need one my size or smaller) for less then $6000. I would highly recommend Reimers. I have only deal with them this one time so far but the quality of the boiler and dealing with them personally I would definitely go back to them and recommend anyone do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Maine Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Hey there Made in Maine, You have some fine looking machines i see! I'm wondering, what's the biggest size still you would make using immersion heater elements?....Why not go up to 200 Gallon?...Also, do you know what the Watt Density rating is for the elements that you use? Also.....A Question about High Voltage and Wet Enviroments Why is it so hard for an electrical contractor to provide electrical grounding and wiring safety? Can it really be so hard for an expert contractor to construct the needed safety requirements? John, Thanks for the kind words. We try very hard. With a 150 gallon still like the one we are building right now, there are 4-5500watt immersion heaters. This will take about 2 hours to come up to running temp and requires 230volt single phase power which equates to a 90Amp service. I am not sure of the watt density, but its fairly low. I buy a lower watt density heater that is inconel and stainless. I will find out and post the density if I can. As for wet applications, some contractors may have experience in meeting these requirements, but most I know dont. I came from a Hydrogen Research and Development company that had to make gaseous tight electrical systems. It was class 1, Div. 1. These applications use liquidtite UL listed flexable conduit and XP(explosion proof) Boxes. Also seal-off fittings. Just down from that is water tight. I have built these systems to withstand a direct hose hit while energized. Not ever recommended, but built to take it. You can also remove the heaters for cleaning and inspection in about 30 seconds and dont need to remove the power supply. Shutting the system down is a must, since the heater cannot ever be run dry. The most efficient heat is direct electric. If you put an electric heater in a room, 100% of the heat is in the room. It is not the cheapest option. But its efficient. The first electric still we built for a DSP takes about 2 hours to heat up and that costs $2.30. The running rate is less, since the heaters cycle at a fairly low rate. Thats around ten bucks a run to produce about 20 gallons of distillate. Thats about $.50 per gallon. All this explained...we are also currently building a Steam Jacketed 40 Gallon still, and a direct fired Copper Potstill. Like I said, not the only solution. Users choice. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks a ton Dusty and Jesse The cost per gallon seems really reasonable, even though steam is apparently cheaper, from what others say. Very nice to see an electric cost of around $0.50 per gallon made! A bit of a pain in the ass for all that water proof electrical saftey stuff. Then again, i'm sure that pressure fittings and such aren't fun either. Thanks a bunch for the info on liquidtite flexible conduit and explosion proof boxes, etc...Also, that's really cool about the heaters being removed so easily for cleaning Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baronnahmias Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks for all of your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Maine Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 You are all very welcome. Glad to share. I always strongly urge a double check on everything. remember, its the fight that you specifically have to win to consider which way you will go. It seems that education is the hardest hurdle to cross with many authorities. Not saying anything bad, just many havent dealt with some of the things we are doing and need to hear that its not new technology and is in use in many other places. most just wanna CYA and put the old "belt and suspenders" thinking to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 The still will be cheaper and you can find a good/great boiler for your needs (assuming you only need one my size or smaller) for less then $6000. I would highly recommend Reimers. Which unit do you end up getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Maine Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hey there Made in Maine, You have some fine looking machines i see! I'm wondering, what's the biggest size still you would make using immersion heater elements?....Why not go up to 200 Gallon?...Also, do you know what the Watt Density rating is for the elements that you use? Also.....A Question about High Voltage and Wet Enviroments Why is it so hard for an electrical contractor to provide electrical grounding and wiring safety? Can it really be so hard for an expert contractor to construct the needed safety requirements? John, I have determined the watt density of the "standard" water heater element and the ones we use. standard 5500watt element=~161 watts per square inch our 5500watt element=~62 watts per square inch The standard are used by some for distilling. I have seen them, they can be replaced "apples to apples" with the one we use. They are more expensive, but IMHO worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lswanson1 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Which unit do you end up getting? RH54 was the model I got. It works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly P Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Great Info. Thanks much! Hey Jesse of "Made in Maine" I am thinking of adding immersion elements to my 55 gal "drum" still. Presently using 3 "bg10" propane burners. Do you have a recommendation as to the sizing of elements. I have single phase, 240 volt capability and would be interested in the MFG of these Low Density elements. Thanks, Kelly TTB out of Cinti received my DSP registration Feb 11, 2011 and says another 2 weeks til she can get to mine. I'm behind 21 other DSP's. Kelly Sauber Dancing Tree Distillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Haas Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Very interesting discussion so far. What do you all think of making a jacketed still with the immersion heaters in the jacket area, rather than with the mash? It seems this is how direct heat electric steam kettles do it. I have been looking at some steam kettles, but it seems you'd need to fabricate a new cap for most of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made in Maine Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Very interesting discussion so far. What do you all think of making a jacketed still with the immersion heaters in the jacket area, rather than with the mash? It seems this is how direct heat electric steam kettles do it. I have been looking at some steam kettles, but it seems you'd need to fabricate a new cap for most of them. Jedd, This design is a good one, My engineer and I worked out how this would work nicely...anyone interested, give me a call. 617-849-2849. Jes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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