MG Thermal Consulting

Hello, I have quoted some cooling systems more west of you (Nashville area ) and north into W KY. If I can help on you cooling system, give me shout. MIke

Generally you can run 460/3/60 US on 400/3/50 (it'll run slower) but to do it in reverse means motor will run hotter and overloads may not be sized properly, along with mechanicals at the higher speed. It's a crap shoot if the manufacturer can't tell you.

Take one of the distillery courses offered ...Paul at MB Roland Distillery at Pembroke, KY (N of Nashville) is probably your closest (?). Do this after your have done your research and have a rough idea where you're headed. Good Luck! Mike

Curious...you are putting in water treatment for the well water, no? If not, you can foul up the tubes on your condenser (if you are using a shell and tube), given the hardness of the Mid-west water. Just wondering.

Great luck on you adventure! Give me shout if you need any help with cooling systems. Regards, Mike

Ken, Check out Trident Stills, close to you in ME while you are visiting, Jesse can supply your needs for distillation equipment. I have used his exchangers and he is extremely knowledgeable and helpful to his clients. I can help you out on the cooling side as well. Mike

7th is spot on there. We supply chillers and heat exchangers for this express purpose. I can send you a sample schematic. If you have a mash cooling load, be sure to make room for a water reservoir to take out the shock of the initial heat from the mash cooler. BTW, the cooling system would cost less than the well- pretty sure, but depends on the size chiller required. Good Luck. MIke

Whatever you do as far as a reservoir tank (I have a piping sample on a 500 gal still using a 1000 gal poly reservoir and a 10 HP chiller), the chiller usually has it's own dedicated pump (higher flow, low TD) while the process (lower flow, wider TD) for the condensers. Just a thumbnail on your chiller selection, if you are looking at running 5 stills at once, I would say a 12.5 HP (ton?) chiller is marginal. Your capacity of 200,000 Bth/hr looks more like a 20 HP chiller which serves the brewery too, I assume. Anyway, if you would like the sample schematic, send me an email. Mike

Greeting J! Lots of great info to be had here! If you need any help on the cooling water side, give me a shout. Regards, Mike Gronski MG Thermal

Or work the electric backwards from your meter amount & cost / month & the amount of runs in that month.

Basically what I recommend, David. But if you have a system like yours, I'd be looking at about one 500 gal reservoir and a 4 HP chiller. For those up North, I quote them an optional winter glycol cooler (has its own circulator pump) and an indoor isolation exchanger for another $3,100 an you can cut the winter HP used from 5 1/2 HP (chiller compr, fan & pump) to 1 1/2 HP (wintercooler fan & pump) in this example. May not be much with a small system, but if you do mash cooling and you have a 10 ton chiller, the wintercooler (a larger htx is needed) saves quite a bit more HP. Another factor going to two tanks and not one is that the chiller temp is lower 32F vs 50F which costs more in Kw/ton of refrigeration. Of course, it depends on the amount of hrs the chillers are actually running and the efficiency (my 50F 4HP would need 6 or 7 HP to get to 32F). There are always several ways to skin the cat, but most are similar in that they use the flywheel effect of a storage tank.

I have a line of new and used chillers that I use for that express purpose. The best deal I have right now is a 2 HP, 230/1/60 and a 3 HP, 460/3/60 package chillers with circulating pump, both used less than a year and returned back to the factory. Email me and I can send you over specifications and pricing. How big is the still or how do know how much cooling do you think you'll need? The chillers are FOB Rogers, AR, plus freight. We'll run test them and ship from the factory in about a week. Mike Gronski mikegronski@gmail,com www.mgthermalconsulting.com

Kevin, Good luck! Next year I hope to make a swing to NE to see a cooling system being put up in VT now and to see the boys up at Trident in ME. Who knows where I'll get lost and be at your doorstep, LOL. If I can be of any help on cooling systems, give me a jingle. Regards, Mike

Welcome DKR, I'll email you some info on my closed loop cooling systems for your consideration. Call me anytime for questions. I have a good friend and associate that lives in Wilmington who is an expert with material handling devices and controls, if you need info in that area. Good luck! Mike Gronski 678-773-2794

There are "hot oil/glycol" temperature controllers that are powered by electric elements, common in the plastics/optics industries for close temp control and heat up of a mold before pressing. The PID controller will control whether it is in "heat" mode or "cooling" mode. They are available with 4 Kw and up heaters, normally 460/3/60 but can be purchased with 230/3/60. Basic ones are about $2,000 but if you need special wiring codes, the price jumps quickly.

I believe Jess over at Trident Stills also does electric mash tuns.

Ryan, Good luck! I'm down the road NE of Atlanta & worked in Charlotte for a while- they could use some livening up! Give me a shout if you need any info/help on closed loop cooling or utility saving strategies. Regards, Mike G 770-995-4066

Good Luck! I'm at your service if you need information on cooling systems/ energy-utility savings strategies. Hopefully the legislative issues wind up in the distillers favor! Regards, Mike

I remember selling compressors for Surge Bulk Milk Tanks out of Chicago. They were a national company (I don't know if they're still around) and had a large volume of business and local (to the farms) service people, so I would check that out in an area where the dairies are. There are others, but my brain is in lock down. Good Luck.

Hey Tony! I think I have talked to more than a few with plans to start up somewhat near you, I assume everyone has a bug! Seriously tho, I you have any cooling questions, give me a jingle of shoot me an email. I have pictures of the equipment used on distillery being installed at present- chiller, dry circuit glycol cooler (winter cooler) and mash heat exchanger. If you're interested, I can email you the schematic on how the engineer put it all together for the distillery. Good luck! Mike Gronski 770-995-4066

You must have a lot of space!! Sometimes space is a real problem and new distilleries believe that reservoirs are unnessesary until they get the shock that they can't crash cool or realize just how much water is going down the drain. The distiller has to be pretty savvy to think through and execute a utility (water and power) saving program to the extent you have.

I figure a small 4 ton coaxial glycol to water heat exchanger would cost another $775.00 Mike

Base on what usage you have there, your continuous load is about 42,000 Btu/hr (3.5 ton chiller). I have a used 3 ton (460/3/60) but can get you a new one shipped in two weeks or depending where you are located, a drycooler will get you most or all of the way there with a heat exchanger loop and tank. The 5 to 10 ton drycooler I use will cost you $2,500 or a 4 ton chiller another $7,750. Now if you can pipe the drycooler with a heat exchanger on the exit of the still condenser, that will work on the highest temp of the condenser water which would then go to a poly reservoir tank from where I have a 2 ton chiller to work on the water tank to get it to 50F. I have two used 2 ton chillers, 230/1/60, both priced at $5,000. Chiller and drycooler have their own circulator pumps. You would still need to buy the in-line glycol to condenser water exchanger. A couple ways to skin the cat. The drycooler has 1 HP pump and 1/2 HP fan motor and the 2 HP chiller also has 1/2 HP fan motor, 1 HP pump besides the 2 HP refrigerant compressor, max HP would be 5 HP and minimum 2.5 HP (both pumps need to run). You can do the math for your run hours KWh vs the 1,000 gal/day cost plus sewer. Normally the closed loop payback is less than two years, but most of the time less than a year.

Ok, gotcha, I figured you had to have some kind of a cold glycol loop in there somewhere. I think it's a function of the batch vs linear cooling profile of the chiller. Curious, what size chiller do you have? What spread is your isolation exchanger sized for (difference between output water and the input cold glycol)? I try to size mine for 5 degrees, that way I don't pay as much for KW on the chiller vs a little more expensive exchanger. Good way to save Btu's on the heat recovery. Up North, I try to extend it as much as I can by the drycooler which can get most of the cooling when you are below freezing and if you're not doing mash cooling, the cold water tank can be much smaller, the mash cooling being the gorilla behind the still that wants to grab ya. If I can, I try to put the chiller indoors (or use a split system with refrigeration condenser outside) so I can eliminate the glycol except where I have a drycooler. With casters on the chiller, you can move the chiller outdoors and the discharge air doesn't heat up the process area- real convenient for small units.

Nick, I follow what you are doing on the heat reclaim side, but I don't follow you how this can reduce the cooling unless your cold water reservoir is inside a blast cooler. You can reduce the utility, I agree, on the heat side but your cold condenser water has to come from somewhere, so the refrigeration chiller replaces the city water. John, Cooling towers can only cool water to about 85F in the summer because the cooling is based on wet bulb, which is probably around 76F where you are. the cooling tower also uses about 2-5% of the water sprayed over the fill, so you still have a utility bill for that along with filtration of the water out of the tower, which is why I recommend dry coolers integrated to a chiller (or city water loop for the summer)- you already have the closed loop (glycol/water mix) that is pumped through the heat exchanger to make your cooling. Either method you will need summer booster cooling, but the dry circuit is cleaner and you won't have to worry about winter freeze on the cooling tower.