MG Thermal Consulting

If you have a closed loop cooling set-up, another way to go on the process pump (not your chiller pump) is to run it with VFD via your temp controller, control panel package, throttling the flow without valves and saving electric.

Much of this depends on the design of the condenser. I have seen a large spread of water GPM requirements for the same size stills tells me one thing, the outgoing water will vary as widely. 80 to 100F is more common for recirculated water systems, meaning temperature incoming is lower or the flow is greater than for city water.

I have quoted equipment off the Keys for a rum distillery. Microbrews are busy as well.

Reviews are a funny thing..I have dealt with thousands of customers and hundreds of manufacturers in my time and there are some that are a joy to work with, some you can take or leave (mostly dread the phone call from) and those you won't talk to fro all the tea in China. And many have the same feelings about you. Over the years you gravitate to the first as much as possible (time is short!). I generally have had some very good experiences with this forum and not many "snipers" or too many "know it alls). It gets old to see some axes being ground to the handle, for sure. On the other hand, I have had heard and talked to some that have been truly been lead down the garden path or got given proper information by manufacturers that probably couldn't be gotten away with except for the "boom". I try to be as generic as possible with advice and hope to save some a few bucks on their start ups. What goes around usually comes around, but sometimes you have to live a looong time to see it!! In the case of a serious gripe with a manufacturer, I would advise someone ( moderator?) give the manufacturer a chance to respond. Some care, some truly don't, especially if they are a large company. At this point I see some outfits trying to make a quick buck by copying a design because lead times from "usual suspects" getting overwhelmed. Only thing I can say is go see their installations (more than one, since one may have been a "gift" to get an installation), and remember- if their price is too good, always suspect.

The Mickey D's of Vodka?

DC, MD and VA are all hot spots! I hope to have a cooling system go in MD very soon!

Sam, I could get a galvanized vertical air tank which we could fit for chilled water. Where were you going to put the chiller? This would be closed loop with some inhibitors put in the water to keep it from making rest and such in the loop. I'm pretty sure you would be way under $10,000. I have another fellow looking at pressure tanks for me & I'll ask him. Mike

I can't help you out but like you, I'd wonder just because somebody says something, doesn't make it so! Without a UL label or ASME stamp, you have no certainty of anything, really.

Hey Sal, I use the reservoirs to capture more cooling (as many describe)- this is most effective when you have mash to cool, which is time dependent (2-3 hrs). To chill mash without a storage tank, you need to oversize the chiller which makes it about twice or more the size of what you can accomplish with a storage tank piped in. That being said, the chiller I offer can be used without tanks, but you are making the system much more unaffordable. You have to make other allowances like an external bypass arrangement to pre-cool the hot water coming back from the still. We can discuss it at length, if you wish. James, The method you use is not very accurate to size the chiller, certainly in the case when you're cooking mash, then taking heat back out. To complicate it, the size (actual performance!) of the condenser is directly responsible for sizing the chiller load. You can either get the manufacturer tell you how many btu/hr the condenser will reject, test the condenser with city water as close to 50F as practical, or if you already have the chiller sized for the mash cool and have one still-one mash tun, you're covered since the mash load is much larger (btu/hr) than the still cooling load. But your right about the chilled water tanks, but you do lose btu's coming off the open top , tho. I have talked to guys that use old dairy bulk milk tanks to store the cold water, too. The old refrigeration systems from them can't be repaired, so they scrap them- but that's ok, you're chilling the water and just storing it where the milk would be. Where there's a will, there's a way- but you still need something to get your water down to 50F for best results, no?

I offer closed circuit cooling systems which use refrigeration chillers and outdoor air- water/glycol coolers and auxiliary equipment for the entire cooling system. See my website for pictures of various items: www.mgthermalconsulting.com. Call or email and I'd be happy to give you some ideas and budgets. Regards, Mike

A small tip- when getting quotes for installation of boilers, best be sure the installer knows your local codes ( or has a license for your locality). These change from state to state and even county to county.

congrats! now the fun starts;) Mike

A lot depends on whether you can negotiate gas pricing (bulk buy) or not and the relative cost of electricity as mentioned before. If you are getting any help from a local grant, this may point you in a direction. Generally the larger you go in size, the better the Gas alternative looks, as first cost goes (relative install labor being almost the same). Good luck. Mike

Glad you're pulling everything together! VA and DC are busy places for distillers!!!

How many KW are you talking?

Good luck, Randy. I lived around Hartford with my first company out of college-- seems like a century ago ( bad jk!). If you need any help on cooling systems, give me a shout. Mike

I have to congratulate you on keeping up "beekeeping". A lost art to be sure. My Grandfather was a farmer back in the depression when many farmers had hives- I wonder how crop yields have changed since?

The jacket mash cool will require more chilling HP or at minimum a larger water reservoir than a external heat exchanger. I use 50F chilled water for the heat exchangers I specify and a 500 Gal mash gets crash cooled in 1 1/2 hr. One client up North has added a drycooler and isolation exchanger to cool in the winter with a 1000 gal water reservoir and hasn't turned on the chiller yet (who knows when with the cold they've been having!). Some energy saving ideas for you to consider.

I would suggest you reach out to Jes at Trident Stills in ME, USA. Are you in the US? Mike

Hello, I have been working with another distillery in your state on their chilled water system to take advantage of the colder climate. Good luck and if you need any anything on the chilled water side, give me a shout. Regards, Mike

Iron is a toughie to get out of water and can cost more than all the rest put together...I remember the old iron ring in the sinks back on the farm, and this was in Upstate NY (Finger Lakes Area).

What grape varieties were there? The first commercial winery was (and still is) in the Hudson Valley of NY, Brotherhood Winery. Just wondering if they were a native or brought overland. Good luck, by the way. Mike

Congratulations, the more the merrier! Mike

The problem you have using heat pumps as chillers is two-fold: 1. Since the are built to a strict ASHRAE standard, by operating them at conditions other than what they were rated for means they are inherently inefficient. 2. Since the heat pump is trying to serve two "masters" - summer and winter, means something has to give there as well. Since you are in an climate where in the winter you can take advantage of a drycooler to make the chilled water (or most of it) in conjunction with a summer chiller with a properly sized chilled water reservoir to work on spikes of the load, you can get a fairly decent shaving off Kw in winter. Looking into solar heat for your ingredient water would reduce operating costs on the heating end. A couple of suggestions, anyway. BTW, are you crash cooling a mash? If so, a more efficient method of crash cooling is with an external exchanger (a picture of one by Trident Stills is on my website) which can operate with a higher temp chilled water than most jackets, meaning a shorter duration of chilling time, saving energy. If you would like to discuss various merits of process chilling, I would be happy to talk anytime. Mike

hotrod, Good Luck to you. I am just down the road and recently was up in Clayton visiting the distillery there. If you need any help on your water chilling system, give me shout. Mike