Southernhighlander

Roger wrote, "my own opinion is that the very name of your organization is in and of itself part of the problem with broader acceptance of our craft" "What I was mentioning is that a wonderful intent may in fact be hindered by a moniker that is perceived as less than desirable by the bulk of said market" "most consumers find moonshine harsh, and once they try it they paint all craft spirits with that "harsh brush". I think that the above quotes speak for themselves, especially the last one. Roger is entitled to his opinion and I have no problem with that. I like Roger, he is a good customer and i hear he makes great Vodka. However the fact is that there are some great Moonshines out there and he should try some good ones before he knocks them. Also I was pointing out that in certain parts of the country and with certain types of people, moonshine is very popular with the "bulk of the market". Also, I have tasted several charter shines that were comparable to the best Bourbons and Whiskeys. I have a much better understanding of moonshine and the people that love to drink it than Roger, because I grew up around it, drank it and helped make it as a teenager (before I turned 18). I grew up in a dry county in east Tennessee and up the hollers around my home town, there were at least 50 people who were producing and running moonshine at any given time. Though many locals consumed it, the bulk of it was sold to certain families in NY and Chicago. Up there it retailed for over $120.00 per gallon and they could never seem to get enough of it. I was around it in the late 70s and early 80s, but this had been going on since the early 1920s when the first Kingpin in my home town hooked up with the Chicago and New York families. I remember as an 8 year old kid, coon hunting with my dad on a full moon night, as a light snow was falling. Our hounds had a big coon treed on a ridge above a little farm. I said "dad how come Garnet's barn, and outhouse have snow on the roofs but his shed doesn't have any snow". My dad said, the shed doesn't have any snow on the roof because Garnet's running his still and the heat from the still is melting the snow off of the roof. A few years later I went in that shed after the feds busted Garnet. The revenuers had went at the still and fermenters with axes, pistols and shot guns. They had killed two of Garnet's bear dogs and had thrown them up into the fermenters. The dogs were big Mountain Curs, and it still does not make sense to me why they made the effort to throw them into the fermenters. Garnet was caught making liquor several times, however my grandfather made liquor for many decades and was never caught. My grandfather was called Uncle Dillard Hall, by all of the mountain people of that area. The uncle moniker was a term of great respect in the Southern Highlands. He was a good man who adopted 18 children during the depression and he put 3 of those children through college. He had over 600 acres of land with over 100 acres in tobacco at one time. It was moonshine money that helped raise, clothe and pay for college for those kids. My grandfathers charter shine sold to Doctors, Lawyers, Politicians and Judges all around that area. It was considered to be far better than any bonded liqueur, by the people who drank it. I did get his recipe wrong. It was Malted Corn, my families strain of yeast and a quart of my families honey for every 100 gallons of mash. He also added a powdery looking stuff that was not yeast. He also added some slimy looking stuff that he kept in a bucket, to the sweet mash. It had a funny smell, almost like butter. He would add mash to the bucket to "replenish it". He had stuff in a different bucket that he would add to the sour mash that was used to make his barrel aged Charter Shine, that had a different smell that I can't really describe, but it was almost like raw potato. After grandpa died, I asked my dad about the stuff in the buckets and the powder and he said that Grandpa got that stuff from his grandpa and that the sweet mash one created flavors that worked for the white whiskey and the sour mash one created flavors that worked for the sour mash and the barrel. He said that the powders got rid of bitterness. I think that the stuff in the buckets was 2 different types of bacteria, but I have no clue what the powder was. i know that the stuff from the buckets had to be added at a different time during fermentation, than the honey because he said that the honey could kill it if they were added together.

Roger, You should never put down any spirit as being inferior to another. There are some great moonshines out there. One of the best spirits that I have on the shelves, in the bar in my man cave is a sweet mash, corn whiskey moonshine made by Ozark Distillery. It has a wonderful buttery corn on the cob flavor that reminds me of my grandfathers sweet mash moonshine. My grandfather always said "sweet mash for the jar and sour mash for the barrel". His barrel aged, charter shine was some of the best bourbon that I have ever tasted. He understood that sour mash white dog is not it's best as an un-aged spirit, and that the charred aging barrel does not improve sweet mash corn whiskey. Sweet mash corn whiskey moonshine is an age old tradition that has been around since long before the moonshiners started using sugar. My grandfather would never sugar anything. His corn whiskey was made from large kernel white corn, spring water and my families yeast strain and that was it. The only varieties of corn that he would use were hickory king or hickory cane. Those were the only varieties of corn that the East Tennessee Mountain people would use for their liquor, for the table and for their livestock, for generations. They believed that yellow corn was inferior, especially for whiskey. Here in the Ozarks and in many places in the South, you will sell far more moonshine than vodka. Most southerners don't care for vodka, because to them it has no flavor and body, just the rubbing alcohol flavor of ethanol. I'm not knocking vodka here. There are some wonderful vodka's out there and there are many Southerners that like Vodka, but the predominantly Scots Irish ancestry of the Southern Highlander demands whiskey. There are some great, wonderful, legal moonshines being produced all over the South and many of us Southerners love them, because we grew up drinking the real thing. There are many grades of moonshine: Spittin Whiskey (you spit it on a camp fire to make fireballs), Fightin Whiskey, Sellin Whiskey, Sippin Whiskey and Courtin Whiskey. Courtin Whiskey is what you take with you to loosen up your potential father in law, when you ask him for his daughter's hand and of course, it was the highest grade of moonshine. Sippin Whiskey and Courtin Whiskey would typically be barrel aged Charter Shine (Bourbon). Something else that you should know. I find that in general Southern Highlanders, Middle Kentuckians other Southerners and PA Dutch have more general knowledge, concerning distilling and especially the distillation of whiskey than people from other parts of the US. That is not to say that there aren't some great distillers in other parts of the US. I think that we have this knowledge because whiskey making is a family tradition for many of us and we have access to basic knowledge that is passed down through generations, going all of the way back to our Scots Irish (Irish Protestant), Scottish, Irish and German ancestors. My ancestors were almost all Scots Irish with a sprinkling of PA Dutch, English and Irish. Most of the American distilling traditions come from us Southerners and the PA Dutch. Personally I would never put down any particular type of spirit as being inferior to any other type. A judge would never judge Vodka against Whiskey. I can say what my preferences are, but that's different. I would rather drink a good sweet mash, or charter moonshine any day, than any vodka ever produced, but that does not mean that I think vodka is inferior to moonshine. It just means that vodka is not my favorite. I love Bourbon, Tennessee Whiskey, Scotch, Irish whiskey, Rum, Sweet Mash Moonshine, Charter Shine and I have even tasted some Sugar Head Shine that was pretty good. I never used to like Gin, but lately I have tasted some American craft Gins that I loved. I really like good Brandy and Snaps. i have tried lots of vodkas and I find some less disagreeable than others, however I judge vodka against vodka not against whiskey or moonshine. How many moonshines have you tried?

Wow flojet makes a special g70 assembly with 3/4" barbs for us as well. Our g70 pump is only $379.00

Vsaks, Kathy says that the 3/4" barbs are out of stock. We will have them back in stock in about 1 week.

vsaks, The hose barbs are interchangeable on the g70. We can sell them with ether the 5/8" or the 3/4", and of course our price is better than TCW.

Old Spirit Distillery in Oceanside NJ.

We just finished the 200 gallon ultra Pro Vodka Still in the picture, yesterday. We have 2 of them (twins) going to a distillery in New Jersey next week.

One thing that you guys should keep in mind is that you need a low rpm (less than 100rpm) agitator with large paddles and lots of torque if you are going to be doing grain in mashes. If you need an agitator just email Paul@distillery-equipment.com and we can set you right up. 0

First, you will need to check with the manufacturer to make sure that their vessel will handle the stresses. You could also have a good mechanical engineer take a look at it. We put redundant vacuum relief valves on ours and we have a plumbing design that allows all of the steam to condense before the cold water is added. If you add the cold water into the jacket with steam in the jacket there will be very violent pressure waves that could damage or destroy your vessel. I have a plumbing design and operating instructions that we use for our pro series mash tuns, that are capable of steam heat and cooling in the same jacket. However, I decided a couple of weeks ago that I will only be giving our steam/cooling jacket plumbing design to people that are purchasing our pro series mash tuns. I just don't want the liability. You asked this question: "Our concern is the dramatic temperature drop from about 200F to 50F water. How would I introduce the water without doing damage to my jacket?" Answer this question. Do you do any damage to your vessel when you have 53 F water in your pot and you put 230F steam in the jacket? What if you are using a jacket to crash cool 200F mash and you have 28F glycol in the jacket? What about a 304 stainless HLT with a 304 stainless fire box with jet burner flames at 1200 F on one side and 55 F water on the other side with a stainless vent pipe that is 600 F,and on my HLTs, I run the vent pipe up through the water. Here with this last example we have temp differentials as high as 1,150 F. Always step outside of the box so that you can walk around the problem and look at it in your mind from all angles. Use common sense and logic. I will tell you that if I had a choice between cooling with a steam, jacket or cooling with a tube in tube heat exchanger, I would go with the heat exchanger. Our largest model, like the one in the pictures that are posted earlier in this thread are really heavy duty, and our price is over $1,000 less than our closest competitor.

I would love to have you visit. We are 2.5 hours east of Springfield, 20 minutes east of the small town of Alton MO off 160 highway. If you want to vist and take the tour let me know and I will send you directions. GPS won't find me. If you visit I will show you some very interesting stuff.

I agree with everything you wrote above and no where did I disagree. However, if the customers only viable option is a 300 gallon electric still running on single phase I am very glad to sell it to him/her and that is absolutely the right thing for me to do. So unless you are disagreeing with that we are on the same page. I know my business better than anyone. It is what I do everyday, 7 days most weeks. I love and enjoy every day of it. As far as it being my competitors prerogative to not sell larger electric stills, that is 100% correct. I hope they keep doing it that way, so I can keep getting the millions in business that they are missing out on.

bluestar, I understood silkcity's point, which is why I said it is best to have 480v, and I certainly would not try to sell a customer a single phase still when that is not what they need. On the contrary, my point is that; I'm here to sell people the still that meets their specific needs. Believe it or not, there is a very broad range of specific needs out there. I recently sold a 300 gallon still to a man in a rural area, with no access to 3 phase, but he has 400 amps of single phase 240vac power in a building that once housed a small log furniture factory. He tried multiple equipment suppliers, before he came to me, and the two suppliers that did sell electric baine marie stills, said that it was unpractical to sell their electric Baine Marie stills in sizes larger than 150 gallons, and that they did not have any stills with single phase power. I on the other had exactly what he needed. His still has a 66kW heating system drawing 275 amps at 240vac single phase. I tried to push him toward a NG or LP fired low pressure steam boiler, but due to multiple factors beyond his control the low pressure steam boiler solution did not work for him. I have sold around 15 electric Baine Marie Stills larger than 150 gallons. Several were 300 gallons and the largest is 500 gallon with a 110,000 watt 240vac 3 phase heating system drawing 265 amps. I was guaranteed those sales, because my competitors thought it impractical to sell such things. Along with the sale of almost every still I sold the fermenters, mash cookers, mash pumps, CIP systems, pneumatic ethanol pumps, hoses, air compressors, receiving tanks, blending tanks, proofing tanks, etc. Not everyone bought all of their components from me, but most did. We are talking well over $1,000,000.00 in sales, because I could meet those peoples expectations, while my competitors couldn't. Here is how I do business: I try to have equipment to meet the needs of any customer no matter what those needs may be. Many times the customers in this business have so little experience and knowledge that they don't really know what their needs are, so I ask a great many questions to determine what equipment best meets their needs. While many of my competitors just want to sell the customer a still, with as little time, as possible invested in the sale, and then get them out of their hair, I want to sell the customer the still and other equipment that is most likely to make them successful. If that means, I spend 1 hr on the phone on the first call and dozens of hours on emails then so be it, because I know if he or she is successful they will come back and buy larger equipment when they up size. I have had some customers buy as many as 4 sets of equipment in 6 years which means I did my job pretty dam well. Also I never try to sell a customer anything that they do not need and I have systems that fit almost any budget. Speaking of electrical services. I have a 1,000 amp 240vac electrical service here. My employees run a bunch of large 3 phase and single phase Miller sincrowave welders, as well as a great deal of other fabricating and metal working equipment, from that 1000 amp service and of course, there is my electrical department with the construction area and a huge heating system test bed, that is set up to run all sizes of panels in all phases and voltages of American current, except for 600vac and 120vac. I know I'm going to hear, you can't do that, you are limited to single phase 240vac power. All 12,000 square ft of my shop, ware house and office space here was either wired by me or by my employees under my supervision. When I had my wood products business here, I had around 20 three phase motors, totaling over 350 hp, that all ran at the same time. There was 1 primary rotary phase converter, which was just an old used 40 hp motor that I bought from a junk dealer for peanuts, wired a little funny, with no start or run capacitors and a single phase pony motor to spin it up. Each of the other motors that ran the machinery acted as secondary phase converters, when not under a load. None of those motors were ever under full load, at the same time. Only 40% of them would have been under their max load at the same time, when we were running flat out with 8 employees (I automated as much as I could). All this was from a 1000 amp single phase 240volt power supply. Most every licensed electrician and electrical engineer will tell you that the electrical system, I just described could not possibly work, but they would be wrong. I experimented for days before I figured it out. See, I'm out in a very rural area, on the edge of the grid. It is not possible to get 3 phase power out here. A guy up the road from me tried to run a band saw mill with a 25hp 3 phase motor, using a professionally manufactured 40 hp phase converter. The 40hp created so much lamp flicker, when he started it, that the power company pulled his meter. I figured out a way around the lamp flicker in just a few minutes (no start capacitors) and the no start capacitor restriction helped me figure out a type of phase converter that is different than the norm and I still use one today for my 3 phase 300 and 500 amp Miller Sincrowave welders. I figure things out by experimentation and the taking of copious notes. The main thing that allowed me to do what I did, was the fact that there are no required electrical inspections here. I won't go on any further about this because no one is probably interested and it only fits the thread, because it shows my ingenuity and ability to think outside the box. If anyone really wants to know how it worked I can explain it and show pics of my current phase converter. I found out later, that I was certainly not the first person to do it the way that I did, but it is still pretty uncommon.

Silk City. Yes, it is best if you have a 480 volt service, but we can build them for 208v, 230v or 240v 3 phase as well as 220v, 230v, 240v or 480v single phase.

It is only cost effective in that size if there is no way that you can have an oil, Natural Gas or Propane Fired Boiler. The run time for whiskey, after the operating temp is reached is only 4 to 5 hrs. For prices on the big baine maries, you will need to email.

Roger, that is some funny shit right there, I laughed my ass off. Thank you for brightening up my day.

Whiskeytango said "Well if you ever sell anything and you have the choice between filling a 26 gallon milk tank order or a 450 gallon still what would you do first?" I would do the 26 gallon first, but that is not a good comparison. A better comparison is, if we get an order for a 100 gallon pro series pot still and a separate order for 800 gallon Ultra Pro Vodka still, with a complete set of support equipment, then we will complete the orders in the sequence that we received them. That is the only just and moral way to do it. To do it the way that you suggest, is really, really shitty and I don't blame Lotusland for being angry. He has every right to be angry. Of course, if we have 1 still in stock and not the other, that changes things, but we explain that to our customers.

Affordable Distillery Equipment LLC Below is a link to some reveiws. Below is a link to reviews of a different company Our mostly stainless stills, have devices within, that give you more copper vapor interaction than an all copper pot still, however if you want the still to be all copper we can do that. We can supply you with a 500 to 800 gallon complete set of equipment including the still, mash tun, fermenters, crash cooling equipment, pumps and a low pressure steam boiler without going over your budget. Please contact us for a complete quote at 417-778-6100 or email me paul@distillery-equipment.com http://distillery-equipment.com http://moonshine-still.co http://triclamp.co

Hi Rick The still in the picture, is our 300 gallon, pro series, combination mash tun still, and it includes the electric baine marie heating system. The price is $36,132.00 The heat up to operating temp time, is around 1.5 hrs. The typical run time after operating temp is reached is only 4 hrs.

Indy Spirits, Just to give you some other ideas, to help you solve your problem. Sometimes, a combination of methods is your best approach. Jeffw mentioned cycling your mash through the fermenter, using a tube in tube like mine. As he said, in so many words, you can be circulating through the fermenter, using the tube in tube, while you clean your mash tun. This will shorten your work day. As we all know, being able to do 2 things at once can save a huge amount of time. If your fermenter is jacketed, then you can cool with the fermenter jackets, at the same time that you are cooling with the tube in tube, which will reduce your cooling time significantly. Here is an idea. You could leave out 25% of the water that the recipe calls for, and do your first crash cool by just adding the cold water, and then do your last crash cool with the tube in tube and jacketed fermenter combination. If your agitator is not strong enough to leave out 25%, you could leave 12.5% of the water out, and use a combination of adding the 12.5% cold water to the mash and circulation through through the tube in tube. Another very good way, would be to add steam injection ports to the sides of the bottom of the tun and direct steam inject to cook the mash and use the jacket to do the crash cooling. Adding the steam injection ports is no big deal, as long as the tun does not have an insulation jacket. Silk City makes a very good point as well, "Surface area of the tube-in-tube is only part of the story, no?" Many times, people just don't consider all of the variables, when looking at things, so there calculations are incomplete. Here is something else, that is very important to consider. If necessity is the mother of invention, then imagination must be the father. Being very good at math can be a great benefit, but without imagination, your problem solving skills will be limited. For example 2 high school dropouts from Ohio solved the problem of powered flight, when all of the best, most educated engineers and PHDs in the world, at the time, could not get the job done. Edison only had a 7th grade education and he was one of the greatest inventors, that the world has ever known, and I believe that was due, in part, to his ability to imagine. When people said "You can't do that." It peeved his interest and many times, he would prove them wrong. While it is true that later in his career, his massive team of engineers and scientists did most of the work, it was still Edison's imagination that drove the whole thing. Of course Tesla had a great deal of imagination as well, in combination with extraordinary problem solving and engineering skills. When we believe that something will not work, because we don't do it that way, and we have heard, that it could not possibly be done that way, we are limiting ourselves. When we believe that our way is the best and only way and we won't consider trying another way, then we limit ourselves even more. Also, if we believe that some uneducated old moonshiner from Appalachia could not possibly have anything of value to offer us, as distillers and still builders, then we are limiting ourselves yet again, because he may know things, that were learned by his ancestors, through 300 years of trial and error. Sometimes these are simple things, but they can make all of the difference in the world, when you are starting out It's best to always keep your mind open and use your imagination. If someone tells me that I can't do something a certain way, my interest gets peaked, and I check the viability of actually doing it that way, because after all, there may be an original idea there, because it may be, that no one has tried it to find out. Of course, original ideas are extremely rare, since we normally just build on the ideas of others, which is fine as well. Indy, I know you might not think so, but I think that everything I have written above, applies to your OP, either directly, or indirectly and I sincerely hope that the information helps you with your problem I have been laying in bed with the flu the last couple of days, using my lap top to post here. I feel a little better now and I have spec sheets and designs to work on as well as about 100 emails to answer, so I am heading out for the office.

If you do decide to use a tube and shell, I am glad to sell you one. There are certainly no hard feelings on my end. paul@distillery-equipment.com

Rick, Unfortunately I have a bad case of the flu. Right now, I'm laying in bed using my laptop, so I don't have access to the info that I need to do the pricing for you. I hope to be back in the office tomorrow or Sunday and I will supply you with some pricing then. Thank you for the inquiry.

Mike at MG thermal really knows his stuff when comes to cooling processes for distilleries. I recommend him to everyone.

Indyspirits So how do you cool that much mash in 5 minutes? Its very simple. You do it the way my Granddaddy did. You leave 1/2 of the water out of the corn mash recipe. You add 1/4 of the amount of water that the recipe calls for at the correct temp for the first and second crash cools. With one of our veriflex pumps you can pump the water over in just a little over 1 minute for a 300 gallon batch. With the agitator on, the crash cool will be complete in 4 or 5 minutes. You can do this in my 300 gallon mash tuns because, all of the agitator components are 3 times stronger than what is necessary. So it's that simple, and of course it is a very old proven method. If your agitator is strong enough on your tun you can do the same. If you let me know the hp, shaft diameter, length of the shaft and the dimensions of your blades or impellers, I can tell you whether it is doable or not for you. If you run glycal through a steam jacket then you will ruin your boiler. Cooling in the steam jacket works well if you have a good well and are rural. You simply run your well water through the jacket without any glycol. Davis Valley Winery and distillery use this method in there two 800 gallon mash tuns and their 300 gallon mash tun. We sold them their Rite low pressure steam boiler. I think that we have sold at least 30 large Rite Low pressure steam boilers. I do hawk my equipment when people are looking for equipment or if they have a problem that they want to solve. I also give out a great deal of good information on here.

Indyspirits, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I did make some good suggestions concerning your crash cooling dilemma, and after that I only replied to your statements. I certainly meant no offense, but I do apologize for offending you. So does that mean that you are not interested in my wager?

Indy Indyspirits. Let's see if you will put your money where your mouth is. Lets make a $500.00 wager. If I win, you donate to the charity of my choice. If you win, I donate to a charity of your choice. If I can prove, that there is a way to crash cool my 300 gallon mash tun in 5 minutes from 140° F to 83° F, then I win. If I cannot prove it, then you win. What do you say?