bluestar

Why not start with just a topic thread on the subject, or specific issue within safety. I think the need for dedicated space would be evident once a few threads were to start to get populated. I have been watching for threads on safety (beyond the "another distillery blew up, will we be regulated"), and would gladly participate if there were.

I'll affirm Nick's 2x, but try to give a rationale: at the point where you have a reasonable business plan, you should not only have a cost and schedule estimate, but you should also have some sort of contingency estimate for cost and schedule that should be risked based, and is for dealing with at least the known unknowns. So, that 2x number is another way of saying the correct contingency going into a business like this is 100%. I think that is true for BOTH cost and schedule in this case. OK, why is that reasonable? Because there are so many known unknowns that CAN'T necessarily be resolved before you start to execute. That is because they are items that are out of your control: time for response from federal, state, county, and local entities; permit approval requirements; specifics of some of the equipment requirements once your process has been optimized, etc. Maybe, if you were starting a distillery that were a clone of one you had previously been operating, you could reduce that down to 50%. Or 30%. But mostly we are talking about first time start ups, and in that case, the 100% contingency seems completely reasonable, IF YOU HAVE A GOOD ESTIMATE to begin with! JMHO

Steve, as the US designer of record and importer of the manufactured product, you can do the paperwork and testing required to get the compliances with orgs like ASME, etc. Whether it is worth the expense is another matter. But I wouldn't expect the Chinese manufacturer to do that for something built to your design.

It would be great (but I can see maybe why not) if any of the distillers who read/post here that have actually set up to do internet sales would comment on what is required.

I hear you, brother. Space, drains, and plenty of capital. I doubled my space during set up, and would like to double again. I put in nice big floor drains, I need more. Construction mods ran me 2x what I planned, and I probably need to spend that amount again in the next year. And I find I need another tank, new column, another still...

Which model did you end up using? The NDP-15? Materials? Flat or ball valves? Curious which type seems to have performed best for Yamada users.

No single answer. But I can tell you we have been running with 100-120 lbs per 50-60 gallons of water.

Swede, how do you implement variable control?

This is a very reasonably priced course, well crammed with info, and in a day you get to see a full grain-to-glass production of a rye-based vodka in a craft scale distillery. Even though I had taken other courses before, I felt this was worthwhile to see Steve's approach to his operation.

2000 sf, about half that is distillery, other half retail, office, and lab. It is tight.

If you haven't done so, call the TTB and ask about the status. Sometimes they just get lost track of. Be polite in your query, TTB agents are overworked.

Some small distributors require 6 packs.

Update: Got one approved after another call, requesting someone examine it right away. Also, they have at least one new person recently assigned to Formulas from COLA, currently being trained up.

Yup. That is why you have to deliver using Fed Ex, who warrant they will deliver only upon adult signature. And you have to get declarations that the purchaser is an adult. Your bigger problem selling to a minor would be with your state retail permit, I would guess. And although my state says we can carry out such sales, I am not sure how we are expected to verify age, since live retail sales require checking photo ID. But I take your point is that you can shift that risk to another retailer if you wholesale to them. Agreed.

We have tried to ferment some of the blue agave nectars available in 5 gal containers, and found it to get stuck soon after starting. Something was different from the larger container sources. Nominally raw.

Really, why? We are starting to think the opposite as we approach purchasing a new mash kettle. You need really good agitation in the kettle if you are going to cool from the walls.

Yup, we were running our spirit distilled from mead last night, first night after finally getting formulation approval.

Remains a good question. Just learned that our state does not prohibit us from retail mail order via internet to out of state buyers. So it is an issue of what the buyer's state allows. This does seem to be a bit of a hole in the jurisdiction, however. Has anyone every queried the TTB directly on this issue? By the way, I have bought via internet direct retail from a distillery in New Mexico. I don't know how many other distilleries are currently doing so.

NOPE! You can not have a tasting room (if by that you mean a room where you can taste and make retail sales) in the distillery premises, general or bonded. You can be in the same building, and a physical separation may or may not be required, but that part of the building can not be part of either the general premises or bonded premises of the distillery. I know this because I had to redesign my facility layout per the TTB precisely because of this issue. And they specifically said to me they have run into many small distillers that confuse this issue: no retail sales in the distillery, general or bonded premises, period!

No, but we plan to. And I think at least to others in the Chicago area are working on it. So, that's what I know of locally.

Scribd

Cole Parmer carries the H-B instrument NIST/IRS traceable approved hydrometers for less than $30 each. These meet the TTB requirements if calibrated, but a single point calibration test data is $130. Or you should recalibrate if you can, I found they are not as well calibrated as stated ;-). Follow the manual. If you don't need the NIST calibration, they are a bargain. http://www.coleparme...drometers/60246

Have others noticed a slowdown in the approval time for new formulation using Formulas Online? We are almost 2 months waiting on a submission. The web site still indicates 30 day average processing time for formulations, although that might include paper as well. We gave a call a couple weeks ago, and the clearly frazzled but friendly TTB agent said they had lost two people in the office recently, and because of budget concerns, there was no immediate plans to replace them. She said that they were working as fast as possible to get to new applications, but clearly are behind, but there was no way to estimate when or how they would get caught up. For craft distillers, slowdown in Formula or Label approvals could become a real killer, especially when we are bringing out seasonal or special limited production spirits. The TTB stated goal previously was a 14 day turnaround, but it has now been 4 times that. Any others finding the same thing?

Yup, we use PBW followed by citric.