adding mash to a still

[Workpress]

Hello All

As I was distilling away the other day waiting for my still to heat up I was wondering if this idea would work.

My still is 800L and it is electric with two 7500watt elements in an oil chamber that runs through the bottom of the boiler. To heat up 800L takes about 7 hours...

I was thinking that if I heat up 200L or so I can get that boiling and then pump my mash in through a cip port above the packed column at a slow rate, the liquid would heat up as it travels through the raschig rings and would fall into the boiler at a temp around 98*c or so .

my theory is that it would speed up the heating time of the liquid relative to the speed of the pump and incoming volume not dropping the temperature too much in the boiler.

In my head it sounds like a continuous still set up but I don't think it would work efficiently, I do not know.  

Any feedback is appreciated,

Cheers

Workpress

[Pour Decisions]

That is an awfully painful slow heat up! Are you also using this still as a stripping still? sounds like it should work as a continuous still type operation. Is your mash solids free? What type of pump and means of controlling it do you have? 

[Kindred Spirits]

Just curious are you limited by electrical load?

The issue with your idea is that it will not change the amount of time to heat the whole batch. You will just be soaking the heat up with the input wash, and run the risk of running your pot dry if you do not have a sight glass on your boiler.

It would semi-continuously but I imagine the would take an extremely long time to do it that way.

If it was me in your position and I didn't have a limit on the electrical load, I would upgrade the size of the elements to be able to heat that up faster, I just installed a 1000L system for a client, and he gets a 45 min heat up time with electric elements.

 

[SlickFloss]

a few issues here with the theory depending on inputs... What's your wash? If its grain nope (even grain slurry lautered nope) you do not want that to go through packing and that could cause catastrophic failure under the wrong circumstances (hard to tell this for certain with no prvs listed but if they're not listed because they don't exist kablooey). Several design issues probably at work here against you on thermal efficiency hard to pinpoint them without eyes on actual while operating but if the system is already thermally inefficient it won't be able to put out the output needed to maintain equilibrium (and thus progress the run) while adding negative energy (wash). Reboilers their analogs and competitors etc operate on the absolute keystone of an efficient, variable, and nimble heat source (Sparges, LC Hxs, Beerheaters, Coffey stills, doublers, etc). 

If you're not a slurry in theory possibly but it would need to look wayyyyyyy different to allow the run to progress and realistically with your Hx system as is its not possible. But in theory right you could introduce wash as reflux above the packing with the right steam throughput (which you cannot currently generate). You'd also have to deliver it at appropriate temp and rate without destroying vapor flow given your Hx system. Probably wouldn't save you time.

You'd be better off investing your time and energy in upgrading your elements, or perhaps reconfiguring (with what you got OR what you can get) your still set up in it's entirety.

WHAT YOU COULD DO if you changed your elements and gave yourself a mechanism for 100% reflux (honestly though just buy a new still 14 hours is bullshit you could build a better still) is remove the packing entirely install a worm tube through it then replace the packing (pack it in daddy). Start the still up on water (your new elements on your new boiler I will help you design and build for free will get you moving much faster) then introduce your undiluted gns (yikes haha) to the system by feeding through the worm tube into the boiling kettle. All in all it would be so much easier to just build an entirely new system you don't have to continuously feed for your batch run.

 

Hope you don't take this too disparagingly, keep thinking like this you're on a good path. You've got the gumption and instinct for it, you should consider building your own stripping column. Also, if you can do anything (capitalwise etc.) you can always try insulating.

[Workpress]

 

Thank you for the feedback and it answers an unasked question and that is the inefficiency of my elements and is something that I will have to address for sure.

My current still would make an awful continuous still as I have come to relies, and to re design and build a proper one would be a great project however at this time my budget does not allow for a completely new still. New more efficient elements are something I will be looking into. 

Slick Floss you almost made me choke on my coffee when you said "(honestly though just buy a new still 14 hours is bullshit you could build a better still)"

I laughed so hard as I did build it. The only saving grace is that I have a timer and remote system so I can turn it on early and it can start heating early in the morning so when I get to the still it is 70*C 

as always you guys have good information and there is nothing about this that in any way was discouraging.

 

Thank you

 

Workpress

 

 

 

[Up&Adam]

7 hours! Wut?! Do you have a Heat Exchanger and hot water to pre-heat your mash in line to the still? That could cut your heating time drastically. We are fortunate to have a plate heat exchanger (wont work with grain in fermentation) and a large HLT (185*F) that can take a crashed mash @ 35*F to 140*F into the still. As soon as my elements are covered I turn the power on to 100% @ 22,000W (4x 5500W elements) By the time I reach volume (116 Gallons) i have a 30-45 minute wait until takeoff. of course that time depends on ABV in the Boiler and whether im doing a stripping/spirit run.

[jocko]

My two cents:  I would not pump into the top of the column, and I would not expect what your attempting to speed anything up as you've not changed the amount of energy you can impart on the wash.

 

If you were going to attempt to pump in warm/hot wash, I would pump into the kettle, but pass through a heat exchanger on the way in.  That and upgrade your elements which seem to be vastly undersized. 

[Southernhighlander]

My electric baine marie stills of this size have 44,000 Watts of power and the oil jacket covers the bottom and sides up to the top of the liquid level in the pot.  This gives a 1.5 hr heat up time.  Your still was really badly designed.  You are greatly limited due to the fact that you have very little thermal exchange surface area.  You can increase the Wattage but due to your limited thermal exchange surface area you will never get a decent heat up time due to the way the jacket and pot are designed.    

You would be a lot better off buying a new still.  I can put you into a new 150 gallon Baine Marie for less than $20,000  We can help you with financing etc.  paul@distillery-equipment.com 

[Southernhighlander]

Workpress.

  Also a still should never be operating with no one at the distillery.  SSRs can fail in the on position or fail in such a way that the controller can catch fire and if no one is there the whole distillery burns plus connected or surrounding buildings could burn as well.  Did you build your own heating system and controller?     

[Southernhighlander]

Work Press.  You don't gain anything with your design change idea and it could also cause safety issues.

I've been thinking about how to modify your still to solve your issues..  I have came up with one option for mash with solids and another for a liquid mash

The least expensive solution works with grain out mashes but not grain in.  Simply put some Camco ultra low Watt density water heater elements directly into your wash for faster heat up and run times.  You need 44kW total, including what you already have in the jacket.  To do this all that you need to do is add some element ports in the side of the pot above the  bottom jacket and add a 2nd controller

 

I have a simple fix for grain in mashes but the still's manway must be large enough for a welder to get inside it. How big is your manway?  Are you distilling on the grain or off? Can you sanitary tig weld and fabricate?

 

 

 

[Alex_Sor]

I didn't really understand the main idea, do you have a mixture (alcohol and water) served over the Raschig rings, 6 foot packing? Yes ?
And you want to increase the speed of distillation? Yes?
Is the mixture drained down (200 liters) and is it heated up again down there?
...I have been very busy with work for a couple of days, from Monday I will try to calculate your idea, but I already have doubts that a power of 7kW can be enough with such volumes...