blueridgedreamin Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I am planning a new distillery and trying to find out options. I'm looking at starting up with 80 gallon stills and want some help with how to heat them. Does anyone have options for heat sources for a still of that size? Copper pot still 80 gallon. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Direct immersion elements, Bain marie or steam are all viable options at that size. There are pros and cons to each. Your technique and budget will determine which is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McKee Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Bluestone (and others), Can you provide a little more info on Bain Marie? Specifically a Bain Marie is a hot water bath, which to be used as a heating source for distillation of ethanol, would require the still run in a vacuum environment to lower the vapor pressure and allow the ethanol to distill at a lower temperature. Are you also using Bain Marie to refer to hot-oil systems, in which a thermally resistive oil (such as USP grade mineral oil) is heated via an external source and used to the still. Sorry for the confusion, I've used hot oil systems in the 12-15 MM btu/hr range, but never heard of them referred to as Bain Marie systems until I started making hooch. Cheers, McKee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 We use heat transfer oil in our bain marie systems. You can get the temps way hotter. Take Care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueridgedreamin Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 I appreciate the responses. Not being familiar with these heat sources, I will do some research on those options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudzie Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 We have a 90 gallon jacketed (Bain Marie) with a thumper and coil, powered by 3 x 5500 watt immersed elements, no vacuum required. 1:45 to 2 hour heat up and 3:30 to 4 hour runs on 55 gallon mashes for strips and 1:30 heat up and 8:30 runs for 70 gallon spirit runs. Has worked great for over 2 years and keeps going strong. We go through a couple of elements a year and change out our water in the jacket every 4 or so months. Great way to start off if your frugal like us. I'd rather spend the money on an Anton Parr 4500 to make proofing and gauging easy. Sleep is a good thing. Ran our first 60 gallon still with emeirsed elements for about 10 runs and were so pissed off with the scorching (we strip on grain) we quickly built an outer jacket for that still and ran that way for almost a year until we built our current 90 gallon still. We're almost done with our new 250 gallon striping still (steam injected) that will feed a new 90 gallon spirit still (steam coil) at a second location (non-contagious) that we are building out currently. We will be able to increase our production by a factor of six and that should help keep us from running out of product that happens all too frequently now. Good problem, but it's still a problem. Advise: electric elements in water work great, not so great in mash or spirits. You will learn volumes if your willing to do the work. Plan the vision, execute the plan and be nimble. Running a distillery is a really big onion!!! Mistakes made are not a bad thing as long as you learn from them. Starting off small is good only if at the same time your planning your expansion when it makes sense. Good luck in your journey and enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaalvenn Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Bluestone (and others), Can you provide a little more info on Bain Marie? Specifically a Bain Marie is a hot water bath, which to be used as a heating source for distillation of ethanol, would require the still run in a vacuum environment to lower the vapor pressure and allow the ethanol to distill at a lower temperature. Are you also using Bain Marie to refer to hot-oil systems, in which a thermally resistive oil (such as USP grade mineral oil) is heated via an external source and used to the still. Sorry for the confusion, I've used hot oil systems in the 12-15 MM btu/hr range, but never heard of them referred to as Bain Marie systems until I started making hooch. Cheers, McKee I have never heard anyone in this industry who has a hot water baine marie. Every single time it's been oil, which is a method of baine marie (it's just a different heat transfer medium). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaalvenn Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I have never heard anyone in this industry who has a hot water baine marie. Every single time it's been oil, which is a method of baine marie (it's just a different heat transfer medium). And just like that, in the time I hit reply, walked away and returned to the computer to reply there's someone with a water baine marie. Go figure =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudzie Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 We used oil for a couple of weeks. Ran too hot, created a bit of scorching (lack of surface area) on the inner jacket and we smelt like French Frys. We could run 300 mlpm faster, but not always a good thing (slow is smooth) and went back to good old water and love it. Kind of a pita cleaning out the oil prior to converting back to water but defently worth it imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Sudzie, do you have glycol or salt in the water to get it a bit over 100 C ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudzie Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 We just use tap water. Our water is super. 27 ppm tds 1/8 grain hardness. We shut off at 99*c. I want to leave the junk in the thumper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaalvenn Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 We used oil for a couple of weeks. Ran too hot, created a bit of scorching (lack of surface area) on the inner jacket and we smelt like French Frys. We could run 300 mlpm faster, but not always a good thing (slow is smooth) and went back to good old water and love it. Kind of a pita cleaning out the oil prior to converting back to water but defently worth it imho. What kind of oil were you using? Dehner built my still and I believe it's filled with Mobile Therm (correct me if I'm wrong) and I've been running the still for 5 months and have not noticed a single hint of odor. The oil gets up to about 370 degrees, the agitated mash pulls the heat way faster than 27kW can provide, and I only hit 370 towards the very end of my stripping runs. Before I had agitation I was scorching and agitation completely solved that. I'm thinking of installing larger elements for a faster heatup and run time, but I'm pulling 90 amps and would need to upgrade my wiring to pull more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 And just like that, in the time I hit reply, walked away and returned to the computer to reply there's someone with a water baine marie. Go figure =) And another, we use hot water bain marie. They are actually the standard type of still for certain products, like grappa and absinthe (high solids content). Ours is a Vendome whiskey still. They work fine, and depending on construction, can also be run in steam mode by simply dropping water level down below the pot. Note you can't do that with an oil-based bain marie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Specifically a Bain Marie is a hot water bath, which to be used as a heating source for distillation of ethanol, would require the still run in a vacuum environment to lower the vapor pressure and allow the ethanol to distill at a lower temperature. Cheers, McKee Poppycock, bain marie using water has been used for distilling alcohol for centuries. In particular, it is a preferred configuration for products like grappa and absinthe. It is true it won't be very efficient for stripping low alcohol beers where you start out at a few percent and need to distill down below 0.25%. But who does that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudzie Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 What kind of oil were you using? Dehner built my still and I believe it's filled with Mobile Therm (correct me if I'm wrong) and I've been running the still for 5 months and have not noticed a single hint of odor. The oil gets up to about 370 degrees, the agitated mash pulls the heat way faster than 27kW can provide, and I only hit 370 towards the very end of my stripping runs. Before I had agitation I was scorching and agitation completely solved that. I'm thinking of installing larger elements for a faster heatup and run time, but I'm pulling 90 amps and would need to upgrade my wiring to pull more. We used canola oil. And it is correct that if you don't fill your jacket all the way the upper part of the jacket will be steam. We run our jacket at 3.5 psi. I've used a Lazer point thermometer and there was a temp difference of around 25 degrees if I remember right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Drifting off the original post to Lazer point thermometer. I bought one to do a quick check on still and mash temperature. Assumed they were not very accurate but mine is hopeless. Read the instructions that were closed in the sealed plastic pack and it said not accurate for shiny surfaces = my still not accurate if steam present = my mash tun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudzie Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Drifting off the original post to Lazer point thermometer. I bought one to do a quick check on still and mash temperature. Assumed they were not very accurate but mine is hopeless. Read the instructions that were closed in the sealed plastic pack and it said not accurate for shiny surfaces = my still not accurate if steam present = my mash tun They are not spot on for sure (ours is -7 degrees) but we use it now and then just to see the differential between several areas of the still. Helped a lot in the beginning to get a feel for how to drive the still. And now it's second nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEPA-still-chillin Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Our new 220 Gallon stripping still is an oil jacket and our Carl 150 L is a water jacketed style. Advice from our still builder was to use fryer oil (we are going w/ peanut) as opposed to the expensive thermal exchange oil. Once our new one is up and running we'll see what is flowing better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 McKee, I guess the others have pretty well covered your question. But to answer: we use Bain Marie to refer to a liquid filled jacket, whether water or oil. When using water the jacket is slightly underfilled and creates steam on the spot. We offer this standard only on systems of 150 gallons or less. On larger systems the energy required to get a reasonable heat up time becomes impractical for most locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaalvenn Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Our new 220 Gallon stripping still is an oil jacket and our Carl 150 L is a water jacketed style. Advice from our still builder was to use fryer oil (we are going w/ peanut) as opposed to the expensive thermal exchange oil. Once our new one is up and running we'll see what is flowing better! I'd reccomend the expensive thermal oil. In the grand scheme of things it's not terribly expensive, and saves the stink. The poster above is not the first I've heard having stink issues with cooking oil. As for the laser spot thermometers, you need to put a dab of matte paint on the surface you want to check the temp of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 We build Baine Marie stills with water and oil jackets up to 300 gallons. Evan our 300 gallon units have reasonable heat up times. Unlike most of our competitors our heating systems are built in house. Also unlike most of our competitors we offer 230v single phase, 208v 3 phase, 240v 3 phase, 480v 3 phase and 600v 3 phase heating systems. Our 480v 3 phase 44,000 watt system for our 200 gallon Baine Marie only draws 53 amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 We build Baine Marie stills with water and oil jackets up to 300 gallons. Evan our 300 gallon units have reasonable heat up times. Unlike most of our competitors our heating systems are built in house. Also unlike most of our competitors we offer 230v single phase, 208v 3 phase, 240v 3 phase, 480v 3 phase and 600v 3 phase heating systems. Our 480v 3 phase 44,000 watt system for our 200 gallon Baine Marie only draws 53 amps. It is a matter of going with different type of elements. Not rocket science. Wattco Temco Glacier Tanks has some 3-phase stuff too or even Lowes for the singe phase 220v items Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaalvenn Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Does anyone have a link handy for an online temperature rise/watt calculator? I found one once, but I'm having difficulty now. I'm filling to roughly 130 gallons (a little more on spirit runs since it won't foam) and heating up in 2 hours flat with 27kW (6x 4500 watt elements). Would be curious to see how much of a difference 5500 watt elements would make. Oil jacket with insulation if someone's going to run the #s. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I find myself referring back to this page: http://www.hotwatt.com/calculat.htm It's not a calculator, but has the calculations and some reference tables for the values you need to plug in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Dehner, Its more than just the elements. You have to use the appropriate wire, SSRs, bus bars, breakers, fuses and process control modules etc for the particular voltage The glacier tank elements are not UL listed so I would never use those. I have plenty of stainless pipe now from 1/2" up to 12" if you ever need anymore. Plus we have every triclamp part imaginable at better prices than glacier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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