Falling Rock

Moving review from one agency to another, worked for our distillery in a dif way. State Dept of Health got interested in our water usage as hazmat and sent our permit request to the State EPA. State EPA reviewed our processes and commended us on our "Green" stance. We reuse all cooling water indefinitely, we use hot stillage for next mashing while it's hot (saving water and energy), separating solids for animal feed and compost... EPA was happy, recused itself and we had permit in a week.

I was in a "DSP" food processing plant recently that has over 40 alcohol products all labeled "Produced and Bottled By" and claiming to be the only distillery in the state! They give tours, sampling and show you one 200 gallon still and three 200 gallon fermentation tanks. I'm pretty sure they don't even bottle or warehouse it there. Is it legal for the "product" to never even pass through the DSP Bonded area?

How about citric acid or even lemon juice? There are marine companies on the Gulf Coast using citric acid because the EPA cannot stop them from dropping lemon juice on SS ship parts and railings and washing it into the ocean...and it works. Google it...

You have a great place and while not as far off the beaten path as you...we have no cell service. That causes some people to loose their minds. We drive about four miles to get to a cell tower to make long distance calls. Everything here is working out perfectly. There is also no Code Permitting or enforcement in my county. The ambiguity of the TTB is crazy. Inspector to inspector, Fed, State and County...it should all be spelled out and the same for all.

I have 80 acres. The property/building for the distillery is 200 yards from my house with road frontage on a State Hwy. Has it's own gated entrance to the road. The distillery is completely fenced, but with gates, from the other property. The fence seemed to be a key factor. I got a new address for the distillery property. In most states, you get a new address from the 911 Emergency Service, not the post office. Once I had the new address I leased the property from me to the distillery. Neither the TTB or the State ask any questions about the distillery being on my personal property even though the lease docs showed me leasing it to my own business. State to State can be huge and in town, city, zoning seems to be the nightmare. As already stated, pick your location carefully. As to getting the local stuff done first. My state would not allow me to tender an application until I had the Federal Permit in hand. All the discrepancies make this a very hard business. Having 50,000 gallons of petrol under a gas station next to a hospital is easier because they do it every day.

Nothing there is tragic...bottle, label, closure gets better with volume.

This is an issue I have had a problem with. Currently, local winery buys GNS and mixes down, adds to wine and calls it sherry. I don't understand how they do it. I think the distillery could transfer in wine from distillery in bond, distill it, proof and transfer back to winery. I think you could bring in their wine, make the beverage and return it to them for canning.

Well, what are your numbers?

+1 This was the one question I could come up with no LOGIC to calculate. So, I tried to figure what would be the max I MIGHT ever want to store. I figured if there was an actual calculation and they didn't like my answer they would say so. They did come back with how many square feet of floor space was allocated for storage. Hmmm... I would assume this means nothing without knowing the ceiling height.

Approved today, 214 days. Actual review and request for corrections took 11 work days. On January 1st most applications were reassigned to new reviewers. I got caught up in that. Previous reviewer helped me get to new, but only after I asked. I was asked for six corrections/additional info. All six were easy...add compass rose to drawing, add size/square footage of operational areas to text description, etc.

I put a set amount of money in a specific account and show them that statement. They don't need to see your total worth or a personal balance sheet.

I would say your fermentation capacity has to be at least four to five times your distillation capacity. Always have a completed fermentation ready to run. And with lots of ferment vessels you can have dif products ready to run.

Long ago the cost associated with setting up a custom glass bottle in Indiana were extreme! The mold then has to be replaced every so many bottles. It would be fantastic to have a custom bottle...

Look for an un zoned, county (no city) or agricultural area that can still draw the crowd you want. I'm in a rural area where the only entity interested in me are the water and septic inspectors. It does not have to be Industrial or Commercial to satisfy the Fed.

Heat? In the distillery? Only in Minnesota...

I have a lingering engineering question. Valves have been beat to death. I don't think ventilation has been. Why do all of these ventilation systems rely on negative pressure and venting through an explosion proof fan? I would assume we could remove the same amount of air/fumes from a building with positive pressure (fan blowing in on one end of the building) and vents at the far end (exhausting air). My logic sees this as safer, less expensive and just as effective.

Congratulations...

Yes, but the dif in sea or air may frighten you! But sometimes air will get it closer to your city rather than a sea port.

Random Packings, SPP, Dixon rings, Raschig rings, Mesh, Saddles, Pro Pak, Balls (I won't say marbles), stainless, copper, glass, ceramic...they can all be great applied appropriately. But SPP still has the lowest HETP (more plates per height). It's also the most expensive to acquire. But in Stainless Steel it is a permanent solution. There are even columns using rocks... For neutral, these packing's are more efficient than bubble caps or sieve plates, size and energy required. A lot of that efficiency comes from the mass of the Steel versions transferring heat so well. The petro industry regularly uses Structured Packing...another story.

The cost or pollution issues of cooling water can most easily be taken care of by recycling cooling water. If you can store enough reusable cooling water for a days use it becomes free other than pumping it around. In my eyes it doesn't mater where it came from initially if it's filtered, kept bacteria free and Ph balanced. To discharge grey water to the field, more than 75 feet from any other ground water, I had to get an agri water discharge permit. Mashing depends on the state of the city or well/ground water. I want to use spring/well water, but it will be filtered, Ph balanced inbound and will be boiled before grain is added.

SPP is nothing new to industrial applications. I can find white papers back to the 1940's when it was used to fraction tritium. It has the lowest HETP and can provide the greatest number of theoretical plates in a given space. It is easy to see why it would be great for the production of neutral ethanol. More plates equal greater purity. But just like trays vs diameter vs liquid depth vs vapor speed vs height of the column, etc,...SPP, size, shape, material has to be applied for the situation. If you have a limited ceiling height or can dedicate a still to vodka, SPP can get you the highest ABV and or greatest through put in the shortest column. The physical mass of SPP also makes it efficient, less power due to less heat loss. Most of the time, in practical applications, people buy a packing not suited for their column diameter or height, and wonder why it fails. How many of us actually try to optimize the liquid depth on our plates? We'll getting the size of SPP right for a column still is more time consuming and costly than redesigning your downcomers.

I see a distinct difference between ZONING and BUILDING Regulations/permits/inspections. Zoning against wineries, breweries and distilleries would be a planning decision as to the land use, industrial or housing make up of the area. Building regulations would be the design, permitting, construction and inspection of the facility. My farm distillery will have to meet the same Building Codes and regulations as the lumber mill, grain farm, dairy farm or poultry operation in the area. They all use as much or more electric power, regulated chemicals, and pay insurance premiums based on their exposure. There are reasons that rural, county, farm facilities may have less Building regulation and less expensive insurance costs. Building regulations were intended to protect adjacent structures from damage due to an unsafe neighbor. And insurance cost are based on the exposure of the Insurer. If a farm distillery were to burn down, there is less chance of collateral damage. We'll assume that no rational entrepreneur is going to take a short cut that might affect his business. We know it happens, and we know that you can't regulate stupidity. I'm looking for statistics that show there are no more or less loss in a less regulated Building area. But my first example would be insurance costs. One of the basic drives behind farm wineries, breweries and distilleries is cheaper insurance costs. Your State Senator has a prejudice against farm wineries, breweries and distilleries or he'd be talking about Building Codes, not Zoning.

Welcome Start with a marketing plan. What do you want to produce, rum, whiskey, vodka,...and for whom? Find out how much money can you raise? Start budgeting and rewrite your marketing plan. Then budgeting from the money available to the project. You don't raise money to buy equipment. You raise money to get a Space, Time, Equipment, Raw materials, and Labor. So, if you have a budget...it would tell us how to estimate your potential against other startups we have seen or been involved in. We could answer questions of labor multiples, of the equipment capacity. Equipment balanced against Sq Footage, all being capitalized to fit a budget and time line. Equipment is capable of X gallons in an eight hour shift. This can be dependent on the product being made and the labor available. 8 hour shift? 3 shifts a day? 5 or 7 days a week? Can you order materials, do accounting, mash, bottle, package, manage other labor, and sell while still is running? Or are other people (salaries) doing these things?

So, the basement below is yours? You can do whatever it takes to shore the first floor under the still/tanks, pour a cement or epoxy "tub" as needed where needed.

I wouldn't worry too much about the strength of the wood, but what's under the wood floor? Is it on the first floor of the building? If it is, remove the wood, fill and pour a concrete floor. Side note...when National Distillers closed, 1987ish, in Cincinnati they tore down several buildings. I bought salvaged lumber, wood flooring and joist, from them. I have some still in my garage and a work bench made from it. To this day if I cut a piece of that lumber it smell like whiskey.