Patio29Dadio

I am busy designing a system for my new distillery. I have come up with the need for three tanks. Insulated cold water tank. Hot water tank, and staging tank. Chill the cold water over night to 50F in the insulated tank. Condenser and mash cooling hot water discharge to the non-insulated hot water tank where it will naturally cool over night. Before leaving for home, pump the water from the staging tank into the cold water tank and start the chiller circulation. In the morning pump the water from the over-night cooled water from the hot water tank to the staging tank. Repeat process. I will need a dedicated water pump or two for this, but not too expensive. Later I can work on automated controls. The initial problem I was running into is finding tanks that would take 160F-180F water. Poly tanks cannot. Also the insulated tank for the chilled water can be poly, but I don't like the way they look (a marshmallow as someone else described them) and they will sit next to my other shining equipment. A 1000G custom cold-liquor tank and a 1000G hot water tank was breaking my budget. So I got a quote for 2 sets of two 550G stainless totes that are stacked and will connect to fill as one set x2. The staging tank is poly. I continue to think this through and might tweak it before final purchase of equipment, but water cannot be wasted where I am located.

On the Novatech.com sight and finding certified hydrometers for around $70 but the certified thermometers are $250+. Do I have that right?

I ordered one of Paul's heat tube in tube exchangers. I will report back once we start using it.

Hi Rob. We visited you over a year ago and you sold me on Paul's equipment... however, I am going with the vertical system ?. Glad to hear you are expanding and going to steam. Think you should be able to move this easily.

Agree with captnKB. Closed water system will help. But there is the cleaning. Septic systems rely on bugs that you can hurt by flushing cleaning/sanitizing chemicals down the drain.

Just got a quote from the good people at National Tank Outlet (yes, they work weekends!) for a 550G Food Grade Stainless IBC tote with 2" polyurethane foam with a latex mastic protective coating. Less than $5k each. I think two of those will do the trick... much more than poly tanks, but will stay useful equipment even if we expand in the future to need larger tanks. I can stack these too... which saves floor space.

Looking at poly tanks online, they all appear to be rated at 120 degrees F max. The condenser water from a stripping run will be significantly hotter than that. Anyone else running a closed loop water system using poly for the hot liquor tank?

Exactly what I don't want... a mini marshmallow! Interesting. These are all horizontal tanks, right? Probably don't have the floor space. The stainless IBU totes are compelling because I can stack them and continue to make the case that they are forklift (non-permanent) tanks. The building official is obsessed with any piece of equipment that isn't portable needing engineering and permits... probably adding another $4k to the cost. However, when I look for insulation blanket for the totes, they start to look a bit like a square marshmallow... so maybe insulated poly is the answer. Probably no way around the engineering and permit requirement. Tiny muscles wins again!

Looking for insulated water tank options for my closed-loop system. Need 350-550 gallon tanks - one for hot water coming from the condensers that will be used for mashing and the other to hold water that is chilled to 50 degrees F or so overnight with my glycol chiller... so both are ready to go for the next day of production. Insulated hot water tanks (generally with an internal glass tank) are expensive and need engineering per my local city building official flexing his tiny muscles. Custom-made insulated stainless tanks are also expensive (I bet) and would require engineering (I know). Insulated poly tanks look like crap (IMHO), and again, if tall and narrow will require engineering (we have some earthquake shaking in my neck of the wood-less woods.) And if fat and short they don't fit in my space. Note, I will be doing tours and care what the tank room looks like. IBC totes don't need engineering as they are fork-liftable (got tiny muscles to agree). Thinking of putting a pretty insulation jacket around a couple of 550 G IBC stainless totes for my hot and cold water tanks. Just interested in other's ideas on this fascinating topic!

Recommendations for the best resource for distillery hose? Checking prices at TCW, looking at about $700 for a 2” x 20’ with 2.5” Tri-clamp ends. Seems on the high end.

My stupid old self remembers some green-blue distillate from the copper alembic, but only the start of the finishing run and cleared out before the hearts. Iron in the water you are using to proof down the charge? Arugula in the botanical mix?

Early on I did a grid of the water use and the waste-water pollution potential. It was a hit with every water official in all three of the communities we worked with to find a location. Let me know if you are interested and I can email you a copy of that document... two pager.

Interesting. I always assumed that the "G" in "NGS" or "GNS" referred to "grain" and that it meant that the spirit was produced using 100% grain. Maybe I have this wrong and NGS or GNS can be made from may things, and thus it is up to me to make sure that the sourced spirit I use is 100% distilled from grain.

Thanks for the feedback. Great stuff! I am going to look into this and talk to my alcohol industry attorney. If you think about the ramifications of this for a big producer getting a mistake from a TTB regulator... it could cost millions. I can accept it when the determination is clear, but there are a lot of gray areas in the regulations. Otherwise why do labels need to be approved by TTB?.. just publish the regs and require all the producers to follow the rules or risk getting a cease and desist when they get it wrong! I think the reason is clear... the labeling regulations are complicated and subject to different interpretation. Sometimes the prize goes to those that push the ambiguity and get an approval instead of assuming something is disallowed. Question about NGS or GNS (hear it both ways)... when would it NOT be distilled from grain?

Interesting. Good stuff. I'm not trying to be "crafty" in labeling to do something I am not supposed to. Reading the regs, without getting into a long winded debate, there seems to be plenty of gray area on NGS being re-distilled to vodka. There are always going to be differences of opinion, but I have always taken the approach with respect to the regulations that the regulator is the decider. As we often don't know the basis for the rules and risk going overboard in compliance. In other words, I don't see any benefit in producers in the craft spirits industry becoming rule interpreters... we should just ask the officials for clarification and accept their ruling, but when there is undefined ambiguity I think it is an "American?" responsibility to assume the most beneficial alternative is allowed. My back label says "... is made from a blend of house-made spirit and sourced neutral spirits that are redistilled to capture a balanced profile". There is a separate commodity statement that says "distilled 100% from grains" And there isn't anything false or misleading about this labeling. And frankly, in the scheme of things, I cannot wrap my head around any benefit to the consumer disallowing NGS to be redistilled to vodka. Just ask Tito! But if TTB missed something here, and there is a need for a formula... a formula will happen. Oh... and my gin has a formula. Note that on the table of product categories from TTB and on the COLA online site, there is not a place to connect a formula to vodka... at least that I can find.

I am late to this entertaining party. Read this... Just got a COLA approval for my vodka which is 75% sourced GNS, 25% home-made GNS blended and re-distilled. No formula required. Just the commodity statement "Distilled 100% from Grains." Doing the same base for our gin. I am making healthy cuts in the final run. GNS is inexpensive, so don't mind sending some down to clean the drains a bit. Also proofing with my unique water design. Allows me to keep the "local ingredients" bit and also tweak the product to that craft vodka profile with a slightly unique mouthfeel and finish. In my opinion, GNS is not a craft-killing devil as long as there is honesty in the branding/labeling. I see it as an ingredient commodity. There is really not much art/craft required to produce it. In my view the craft part is doing something with it that is crafty. Those vodka purists that like their familiar near-tasteless ethanol experience have a lot of options I would prefer not to compete with. Your local customers will let you know if you are creating anything good enough to sell and drink.

Variables: - Type of base - Botanical selection - Quantity of all - Masceration, over-boiler basket, vapor basket, post distillation infusion - Extract blending - Other blending - Filtering - Water qualities - Proofing Basically it seems that there is an infinite number of combinations to get to a final product. It is a big puzzle and only for those that like puzzles. What am I missing?

My opinion on this is that as a buyer of equipment, first, I need an equipment manufacture that is up to speed on the current certification code compliance. Then I want to be educated on the value proposition for decisions. I need you to be the expert and help me the customer understand what you think I need and the trade offs for less or more features... what you are doing in this post. Paying more is fine if it makes sense and is a value to me. I would also advise you to think about your market and what you want your brand to represent... and just be committed, convicted and passionate about what you decide. Can you be a lower-cost equipment manufacture while also being tops in safety code compliance? Maybe. But it will certainly create some challenges. Low cost buyers are sometimes willing to take risks on product quality. Just check out those Walmart buyers acquiring inexpensive Chinese-made appliances... things that they could not afford otherwise... so the binary decision they have to make is to go without, or take a chance on the cheap Chinese brands. Some roll the dice. Maybe you don’t want those cheaper product risk-takers as customers? As you point out there are plenty of still manufacturers creating inexpensive systems. Maybe your market sweet spot is above them and below those willing to spend twice as much on Vendome and wait for 2 years for it to be delivered. I am not saying you are a cheap Chinese brand... far from it. You have already established a brand of affordable AND reliable/quality equipment. So maybe you add to that “safe” to that. Affordable, Reliable and Safe! Personally, I believe some distillery equipment manufacturers have jacked their prices due to the craft distillery fever. I appreciate that you have taking an approach to keep your margins consistent and focus on value and customer service. It is my opinion that this is the approach that wins the long-game. Those built on hype and greed will crash when the fever ends. Lastly, I think there is some great responsibility for still manufacturers to over-engineer safety features. Especially with all the craft distillery fever... because so many dreamers without experience are going to be creating highly flammable vapors that can kill them and others around them.

Really strong thread here folks. Thanks for the back and forth. I told someone that I know 1000-times more about this business than I knew 4 years ago when I started, but probably only 10% of what I need to know! Now 10.1%

Took us 45 days and $$$$ in help from our alcoholic beverage market attorney. But building permits took 200 days and $$$$$ in architecture and engineering costs. I had it backwards in my plans.

At an ADI conference, in my notes, someone said that Square will not support the sales of some products including some alcohol products. Breadcrumb POS was suggested instead. Anyone know anything about this? It seems that a lot of distilleries are using Square without issues. I am always skeptical of these "best of" sites, but what about Shopkeep? Any experience with it? https://www.top10bestpossystems.com

Thank you. This is awesome!

I don't believe this to be the case. As I understand you can use a finishing barrel after meeting the age requirement (based on your approved product specification) in the charred new oak container. A good example is Angels Envy... finished in port wine casks.

Why not just a maceration of neutral spirit and fresh peel and then chill filter?

Exactly! We will be open for production in about 4 months. TIs are rolling now. To start I will have a 100G system (scotch helmet and 4-plate whiskey column). With quality mash conversion and fermentation, I would expect to fill a 10-gallon barrel with each finishing run. I tested 5G and 10G barrels and had about the same result... after 4-6 months the spirit was giving off what I would consider full barrel extraction but without some of the pleasing finishing things that happen with a taste. The neutral rest is fixing that. There is no shortcuts to actually testing and failing and learning why. I am embracing failure at this point, but it feels good with dots start connecting. The label will say aged not less than 1 year. It appears that 6 months in a new 10G and then moved into a used neutral barrel to finish in 6 months will work. The idea is to have "small-barrel" whiskey product for sale in a year. For rum, it will be aged not less than 6 months. Now, after we have a supply of 10G filled, we will start filling some 30G and then some 53G barrels for longer-aged stuff that will be a different label... aged not less that 2 years (1 yr for rum). Eventually we will be all 53G (and the bigger equipment will be installed by then). Obviously this plan will come with a need to reformulate protocols as a longer- aged spirit should be funkier, tailsier and maybe with a bit of butyric (IMO) since that is the source of those nasties result in good molecules derived from full maturation. In the end we are all running a real business and need to generate revenue. Waiting for 2+ years before I have aged whiskey to bottle and sell might help my purist ego, but not the business... as long as there is a method to get good tasting brown juice into a bottle after aging in a small barrel. And so far so good... the rum and bourbon in the resting cask are getting better every day. In fact, when the wife and I are thinking we want something to sip on the patio, I am drawn to thieving some from the resting casks instead of dipping into my extensive collection of bottled brown spirits. That is a very good sign!